This is not, nor has it been in recent history, a reality.  The fact that such arrangements have never persisted is, in itself, proof of their implausibility.  A world where there is no crime, for instance, is superior to a world where crime exists.  But such an ideal is as implausible as the utopian volunteerism you describe.  

Nah, not unless you type in your sleep.  And unless you're ErisDiscordia's alt account, you are also not being spoken to.  But since you weighed in...  What is it that's bothering you?

This is a new account with 6min. post limit, so shoot for coherency in your reply.

All that nervous money is going to just pour into Gox ... owait.

Gox is just an example of "...repeated history of being evaporated due to economic anomalies, black swan events, economic turmoil due to politic-economic situations etc..."
The sort that the nervous money is (presumably) seeking to avoid according to the post I replied to.

TL;DR:  Bitcoin is not the proverbial government bonds -- let's be real.

Beads?  Or... Prince Rupert's Drops!

Gentlemen!
Whatever it is you're doing kindly stop doing it and do the opposite.
I don't like waking up to ... THIS

Electric?  Pha!

The plot thickens...

Is supernoding still a thing, BTW?

Just try to keep out of the nuthouse this time though :-)

If you mean "$10,000 by tomorrow" type of stuff than yeah, he's contributed plenty.  Also the lels, don't forget teh lels.

I have plenty of empathy for the mentally ill, but stop deifying mania.

It's also a place for folks whose delusions of grandeur have gotten the best of them

Enjoy your midget Churchills.

^by that measure, the guy who won a few mil in a lottery is the greatest genius of all.

P.S:  If the guy who won the lottery gives you investment advice, and you take it ...you're world's second biggest genius.

SCRIPTURES?   I'm surprised you didn't capitalize "His." 

For the same reason he didn't dress up like a poor kid's idea of success & pose in front of a 70s Rolls?

So wait, that's the sort of thing you dream about?  Trailerpark notion of success?

I'm simply enjoying the show.  You value him for his financial acumen, while I enjoy his ability to make me grin.  Different strokes, that's all.

Me too.  A nouveau riche d00d can't handle wealth and ends up in a nuthouse.
A bit of a tired cliche, not quite Walter Mitty tier, but it'll do, it'll do

Not sure I'm getting this^  Are you suggesting things were going fine, traffic was flowing perfectly, no accidents, and then ...people all over the globe decided "Must make traffic lights, that would be fun..."  Orgone mind control by our Lizard Overlords?

UR the tulip bulb guys, right?

Is there a Dutch equivalent to "going Dutch"?  And I wasn't being dismissive -- if the Dutch can conceive of tulip bulbs as a financial instrument, Bitcoin shouldn't pose any problems.

Wait, so The Hobbit...  Way to shatter my worldview

Ok, Mr.dreamspark.  Hippy parents, I take it?

When a mental patient gives out financial advice, take it with a grain of salt.
Work for you?

You jumped the gun.  wait!

Hahahahaha!  Mwahhhh!!!1

When his advice is clearly fueled by manic episodes, after which he ends up hospitalized?

Also SATAN!1!

You are asking people to offer their real names and pics on an anonymous internet forum before posting their opinions.  While posting an opinion under a pseudonym without an attached selfie.  Get it now, Anon?

You asked how this guy's mental state is relevant to the thread where he doles out financial advice.  I obliged.  Instead of thanking me, you went on to discredit this entire thread.
Way to go, Anon.

Slander?  Factual statements are not slander, no matter how unsettling they may be.  Please stop posting slanderous statements regarding Reptile's detractors without providing your full name, a copy of your passport, and a copy of your birth certificate.  

For the record, I am NotLambchop, and here is my photo:

My point exactly.  Since the guy spent some time in an institution, shit had to be serious
@T.Stuart:  Stay angry and poor.

...and stop hating on me uguise, I cried at the end of "King of Hearts."

I have to say you have a really bad taste.
[/quote]

Yeah, but he's building an addition onto teh mansion!

Yeah, the media could be somewhat unreliable at times...

How The Press Sees it:


Teh Reality:



The d00d brought up that "castle" apropo of nothing, posting a shooped picture just to brag.  Not even mentioning it was a shoop.

No one cared about his mental health until he flooded the forum with confessional attention whoring, painstakingly cataloging every detail of his lulzy predicament.

We The Enlightened had a choice:  rely on tedious and fallible cryptology, or use meme-riddled, apparently thoughtless speech patterns and hide in plain sight amongst the oda.krells <==decoy smiley

Trains don't go to the moon.  No tracks, weird gravity, other stuff.  I'm super serious.

Take the train by the horns and block that metaphor!!1

@wachtwoord: All moon-bound train have horns.  Some that honk, and some that poke loocomodors. (a popular sport pitting a man with a red cape against a furious locomotive)
You're thinking old fashioned earthbound trains.

Nice one guys.  Way to make me feel irrelevant

Edit: Did anyone else see that glitch on stamp?

Take it from a reluctant bear, we're omnivores.  From berries to honey to fish to an occasional camper (but only as a special treat).
~Mishka

Sorry if OT, but with all the mining pool discussions...

@people who believe (lot auction price) > (market price):  That's how I made my fortune.
I went around from one grocery store to the next, buying up sausages.  I assembled those sausages into ginormous wholesale lots, and sold them (at a substantial markup) to investors wishing to acquire huge lots of sausages without moving the market price.

Gentlemen!  Are you seeing what I'm seeing?

yep.

..."sentimental value."

This is a speculation forum, used by traders.  From a trader's perspective, Bitcoin's value approximates its exchange value/price.  No need for qualifiers because context.

I remain cautiously optimistic.

Lil' words can b just as bad...

Not sure how lying factors into this.  Explain?

Most people prefer not to lie unless they have to.  The downside of being caught in a lie simply outweigh the potential gains.  And, of course, there are a few creeps who don't lie because they feel it's immoral.

I think the original point was that since there is a possible boon in admitting to paying over market (i think we agree on that), and no possible downside, a rational player would disclose paying above market.  The winning bidder made no such disclosure, so it's reasonable to assume that the price paid was below market.  

This is an absurd analogy.  If cryptocurrency is manned flight, Bitcoin is the Wright Brothers Flyer--revolutionary, great proof-of-concept, but not something Granny and Uncle Walt will ever think of as transportation.  The Wright Brothers were a failure as businessmen (ignoring the bicycle trade), and after some bitter patent disputes and lawsuits, the Wright Brothers Aeroplane Company was sold.  No fortunes were made--Howard Hughes came later.

P.S:  Aren't we supposed to be around $10k/BTC according to your "research"?

Edit: JorgeStolfi beats me to it

  ~NotLambchop, Bitcoin MegaloNode

^
The father of another revolutionary technology.

^Nah.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Antoinette

History, Gentlemen, History.

That ain't chopped liver, ya know.  His breakfast was made from gese force-fed on the hopes and dreams of the hoi polloi.



  ~NotLambchop, Bitcoin MegeloNode

Nah!

No one who hasn't been committed to a mental hospital is "in the same league."

The very enlightened self-interest which you [seem to] champion brought us government as we know it today.  Simply because nothing else could have (unless you believe in something external and separate from mankind, like God, Satan, or Princess Twilight Sparkle).  A truism, but worth repeating.

No one sets out to build a skyscraper thinking "I'll build shitloads of stairs, hallways, lobbies, fire exits, elevators, escalators, doors, security stations, fire suppression apparatus, HVAC, etc., etc."  But without those things, buildings bigger than a shack are useless.  That's why all the mentioned stuff is made--not because some architect had a fetish for wasting space, time and money.  And saying that your shotgun shack does just fine without an elevator, hallways, or stairways is not an argument to their uselessness.  It's also not an argument for getting rid of skyscrapers and replacing them with shotgun shacks "because then you don't need to build elevators."  


Huh?  

Enlightened self-interest is a philosophy in ethics which states that persons who act to further the interests of others (or the interests of the group or groups to which they belong), ultimately serve their own self-interest.
It is not called "evolution."
I have neither praised nor denigrated it.  

Edit (On the off-chance that you meant something along the lines of "we must not try to impede enlightened self-interest, but rely on it):  That's self-contradictory.  If enlightened self-interest is valid as a concept, there could be no talk of "allowing it to guide us" or "subjugating it."  It either works or it doesn't.  We can no more "allow it to do its thing" than allow gravity to do its thing.

It brought us the government of 150, 1,500, and 1.5 years ago--every government, at every point in time.  Before arguing, please follow the link provided in my previous post, and familiarize yourself with the definition of enlightened self-interest, before commenting further.

I'm still not being clear enough, it seems you're addressing my edit:

Going with your evolution analogy:
Evolution is not a progression from "worse" to "better"--"better" (or "wonderful," to use your language) is a post-factum value judgement imposed by us, the survivors.  It produced what it has produced, and the "wonder" existence holds it holds only for us, the product.  Nothing suggests that if the end result of biological evolution was undifferentiated slime, that slime would be any less "wonderful" to bits of that slime (if "wonder" was even a thing for those slime bits, but you get my drift).

Evolution simply produces what it produces.  Going by its definition, "survival of the fittest," everything extant is the fittest.
Again, by definition.
Not "the best," not "the best of all possible worlds," but simply "that which exists."

Another tangent:  You can no more encourage, deride or discourage enlightened self-interest than you could encourage, deride, or encourage evolution.  TL;DR: I ain't.  Is this a bit clearer?

*This is getting pretty far away from watching Teh Wall, but there's not much happening there [that I can understand or work with].  Hope we're not annoying the purists.

Curious aside:  The Wright Company was a money-losing proposition for the brothers.  Though it kind-a sort-a lived on in part through various mergers, no one ever lost sleep about not investing in the Wright Company when he had a chance.
Take from that what you will

Throughout millennia, man fought his fellow man.  But in the year of Our Lord two thousand and fourteen, before Ab passed onto Elul, Philosopher King aminorex The Inciteful (or Insightful, the texts are unclear and spelling is hard) hath revealed a great truth onto Man:  All of this time. it was Teh Man who turned brother against brother, made Man spill the blood of Man!
Spoke aminorex thusly:

"Yo!  Only governments can start wars.  So no governments--no wars!   Get rid of Teh Man, and bask in peace everlasting!"

   "Awesome!" the people cheered, "How?"

"Well..." spoke aminorex, "Bitcoin!"

  ""

"Look...  I got a Bitcoin bank in Cyprus.  All I WE need is a few coins, and then more Revolution and PROFIT than you could shake a stick at!  U dig science?  Then lemme drop some on U: (v_total - v_govt) / n_humans and v_govt / n_govt.  Fight The Power!
U in or what?!"

  "We totally_dig, under_stand, and we in!!1!  Where 2 send mony4revolution while we get rich?!"


...And there was much rejoicing, hot grils [who were, like, totally watching the whole time] got all in2it and every1 lived happily ever after.

    ~The End~

You're thinking of "Social Darwinism."

Re "definition":  A definition may be as terse or expansive as it needs to be within a given context (dictionary definition, encyclopedic definition, working definition, etc., etc.).
"Going by definition" mean "appealing to the definition," not "here's the exhaustive definition," which I clearly did not attempt.
Pedantry isn't clever, funny or sexy, creekbore.  Cut it out

Let's try to formalise this a bit.
It would be absurd to dismiss "...the power of individuals acting freely in their self-interest to effect significant change..."
There were historical occurrences of just that, so a denial of potential efficacy of such acts is provably false. <==We agree and are hopefully done here.


You're right, he never used the phrase, that's why I prefixed what I typed with "seem to be."  Things snowballed from there.  
If his claim was indeed "...that local control is frequently more responsive and effective than centralized control at some higher level," then, again, it is a trivial claim which could be empirically and historically validated with a single occurrence, making it provably true, and making anyone disagreeing with it provably wrong.
I assumed, perhaps mistakenly, that he was making a non-trivial claim.

Did you shit in the woods?
(If so--bearish)

He brought up several interesting points which you might have missed.  I'll try to put them in different wrappers, hopefully not losing the meaning in the process.

1.  Assume a magical black box which, when the "press" button is pressed, prints out the *exact* result of an election.  Also assume that it is the definitive Black Box--while the result is [by definition] invariably correct, no one knows how it works.  It's a hypothetical, accept everything above as a given.
What do you think the odds of such a thing becoming the accepted method of national elections?  

2.  People do not trust technology--they don't understand it.  They do not understand most of modern technology, including simple stuff like ATMs, but they do not need to trust it--they trust the agencies behind it (banks, in case of ATMs).  This may be absurd, but that's how it is.  There is no similar agency backing the blockchain, and Joe Sixpack has a natural distrust of eggheads.

3.  Recounts.  There is little to suggest that a recount in conventional elections would produce results more accurate than the initial tallying.  But it makes people feel better.  Those tangible slips of paper, as ridiculous and flawed as they are, are used even when a purely digital apparatus recording choices directly from a keyboard to electronic storage (like a hugely-redundant RAID or something) would be cheaper, more convenient, and [provably] more reliable.  Go figure, but that's how it is.

I guess I'm not being clear (and don't worry attacking me, my best friends are all serious pricks.  But fun.).  The reason I repeated JorgeStolfi's points is one of his posts made me realise that I wasn't seeing all aspect of the election problem, or rather that other people were seeing it differently from me.  I was looking at it as a techy, "Is it possible to create a foolproof, incorruptible and practical voting system based on the blockchain."  JorgeStolfi pointed out that the technical aspect was not the gist of it.  From his perspective, the technical side was not even the relevant part.  According to him (or, rather, how I understood him), the most important aspect of a voting system was not its accuracy or even resistance to tampering, but *how acceptable and irrefutable it is to the losing party*.

I haven't thought about it that way, but, after reading his posts, I was able to see it in a totally new light.  It hit me that the problem I was trying to solve wasn't even necessarily the correct one.  One of those "aha" moments.

I'm a sucker for stuff like that.  I may not agree with his notion that it's a case of rigging a turbojet to pop popcorn, but I like "getting" how other people see stuff.
I'm not being too clear, but hopefully you get my drift.  It's like spending endless time working out the minutia of a car's suspension geometry, and finding out that the only thing people care about has nothing to do with handling--they just want it in powder blue.

*And I get that this reads like some peaking acidhead's ramblings about his latest revelation.

^

Take up the ark of the covenant, and let seven priests bear seven trumpets of rams' horns before the ark of the Lord...

Worked once...

And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the Lord.  And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father's household, and all that she had; and she dwelleth in Israel even unto this day

Hurray!

Yep.  The bit where Joshua blew a trumpet and Jericho's walls came down.

Is that Dread Pirate Roberts?

Let's stop playing into "it's a cult!" myth, k?

I suppose if you sell electricity at the couture prices to PETA/SCRYPT bagholders you would.  Otherwise, not so much.
That's why real power companies don't run solar cells unless they're subsidized

Meh.  Manufacture of solar panels creates plenty of pollution (here's a start), panels have a limited lifespan, require upkeep/maintenance, and, while "going solar" requires piggybacking onto conventional commercial power grid (or polluting moar by having to buy huge banks of toxic batteries), conventional power grids can do just fine without solar.
Greenwashing is so early '00.

Unlike Bitcoin hodlers, they plan to *sell* their shares if the market's right.  If they have no plans to sell in your hypothetical, then you have a valid question--what the hell are they doing?

The miners want the most they could get for their coin, regardless of how badly they need the money or what they paid for their gear.  The buyers want to pay the least for their coin, again regardless of all that stuff.  Absolutely no more pressure if the miners are mining at a loss.
A pawn shop won't pay you more for your wedding ring just because you *really* need the money.  It's likely to pay you less.

Miners who pay more for their gear than they make with that gear are [most likely] doing so because they miscalculated the rate of the difficulty increase, not because "they are clearly not requiring a positive return."  Assuming that [they don't need positive return] is as unreasonable as assuming that traders who have bought BTC when it was trading @$1k don't need a positive return.  Nonsense.  Both did what they did because mistake, because couldn't the future, etc. etc--not because they don't care about profits.

Sure, it is possible that there are true hobby traders and hobby miners who don't mind losing money, but what makes you believe that those aren't outliers who could safely be ignored?

Assuming a rational (for profit) miner who won't break even due to miscalculation paints us a pretty nasty picture:  He must mine with his gear, which requires power/hosting/time.  These things cost money (e.g. $$$), which have to come from somewhere.
Now our miner needs to sell his BTC @whatever the price the market offers, just like our strungout d00d has to accept whatever price the pawnshop offers for his wedding ring.  Mind you, strungout_d00d is VERY interested in money, but this only puts him at a disadvantage.

In the alternative, if our miner is truly that interested in Bitcoin [and is rational], he would not spend more bitcoin to buy less bitcoin (buy a miner that doesn't ROI).  A rational actor would wish to maximise his BTC (buy & hold).

>Speculation subforum
>Trading thread

Hi!

It should not matter, but it do.  This crowd lusts for authorities--I keep reading posts appealing to names I should know but have to Google, like "NeoBee can't be a scam U hater--Mr. Snuffleupagus called it an excellent investment!!1!"

I mean, Reptilia validates his confinement-worthy prognostications with "If I'm wrong, then how come I managed to buy the ruins of an abandoned mental hospital in the middle of nowhere a castle?  Hmm?"

So yeah...

ITT:
We bitch about JorgeStolfi's manipulative appeal to authority
...because he stuck his PhuD in our faces
...we learn that he didn't
...so now we want him to

I'm wondering if that's the only way of seeing the problem.  I agree with the above, but...

...the security of conventional banking applications is not the only security layer for the end users of those applications.
Case in point:
If my bank's ATM or webportal gets hax0rd, I don't lose a cent.  If that happens with my Bitcoin wallet/app, I do.

That's because he hadn't changed the tinfoil in his hat regularly, like he should have.

"Black Helicopters Flown By Lizard People" is an entirely different argument.  We're not talking 'bout that stuff now--just mundane shit like security.
*I, for one, welcome our Reptilian Overlords.

^No one cares...



BWAHAHA<twists mustache>

^Exoskeleton shill confirmed.  Ignored.

Mammals!  Don't believe the hype!  6,6,6 is about as black as it gets!

I'm not disagreeing with you.  My slant on this is the question is not what we believe, but how we act on those beliefs.
Bitcoin, at the outset, rejected centralization.  Individual miners using their spare CPU cycles to mine etc., etc.
That's history.
The real mining is done by megafarms, the remaining small miners point their rigs at megapools.  Some don't even buy gear, just "invest" in "cloud mining."
You gotta admit, already not much of the original decentralisation left.  Miners don't care about the voice that they have, my guess is most wouldn't know how to go about using it.  Empty concept.  They distribute the risks--paying a central entity (pool) to increase the odds of having a steady paycheck.
Bitcoiners invest in "Bitcoin banks" (NeoBee), no matter how absurd such a thing is.
Bitcoiners ape *everything that we once wanted to leave behind*, including centralization.

Christianity, and other utopias like Communism, are also all wonderful blueprints to live by--at the conceptual level.  The problem is, just like Bitcoin, they tend to get corrupted, rot on exposure to IRL, and, eventually, become irrelevant.  Tell me you can't already see this happening with Bitcoin
[/grumbling]

TL;DR:  All the signs are pointing to Bitcoin becoming progressively more centralized and, therefore, irrelevant.  Sad but true.

Free market is a tautology.  It is not Fairy Godmother.  Free market doesn't magically make good stuff succeed and bad stuff fail.
Unless you believe in the Lizard People, free market is responsible* for every economic system on Earth, including those with central planning, exorbitant taxation and draconian regulations.

TL;DR:  Saying "free market will decide" is saying "whatever will be will be"--NOT interesting.

---

*If only by failing to prevent.

Your bear friend is looking for you...

Shhh...  No more tears.

Allowed by whom?  What, other than the free market, allowed the [obviously undesirable] "not free market" to happen?  Our masters The Lizard People?


Sure.  Bad stuff, like not_free_market, is free to be unsupported.  Unfortunately, it obviously was supported--after thousands of years free market dialectic, it's finally with us


Where have I suggested that free market would make bitcoin fail?  I even left a TL;DR: for you,


Not sure what you're asking.

From wikip:

What freedoms are you talking about, in particular?  For instance, your notion that my freedoms should stop where yours begin seems overbroad.  Can I take from you what I believe to be rightfully mine?

I am saying that centralization is hurting BTC ==> making it more like the stuff it aimed to replace ==> making it irrelevant.

I did not say Bitcoin is certain to fail.  If that's what I meant, I would have said "BTC will fail."
I did not suggest that Bitcoin is a solution to centralization, I'm not even sure what that means.
By "irrelevant" i mean unimportant, sorta' like Christianity and Communism are today.
I hope that answers your questions, if not--ask away.  But no need for boldface.

Not at all.
Many people sincerely feel that private property is theft, i.e. it doesn't and shouldn't belong to you.  How would you handle those?
Some people feel that if they're starving while you have plenty, they are entitled to take it from you.  How would you handle those?
Do you see where this is going?
You mention proof.  "Proof" is an empty concept unless everyone agrees on the premises and rules of derivation (they don't--hence wars, revolutions, and forum posts).

But many people here call taxes stealing.  Do you see how petty semantics aren't petty semantics, and that attempting to formalize shit and reconcile different interpretations of "what's right" gave us The Body Of Law?

First, some housekeeping.
Sentences end with a period.  Ellipsis: three dots.  Take the extra dots in your ellipses and stick them at the end of your sentences.  Put the rest in your pocket--sell them to your friends.
Again, I did not say "will" (or "wil [sic]").
Try putting moar care into reading than you do into writing.


No.  I Bitcoin is a solution to money.  It never tried to offer a "solution to centralization" because centralization need to be solved as much as peanut butter.
Being decentralized helps Bitcoin.  Being centralized hurts Bitcoin.  How can I make this any simpler 4 U?

@empowering:  But I have just gave you a concrete, non-trivial, and common example of the semantics not being semantics at all!

^YUM!

Well sure!  And, unless you think that today's economy is the ideal free market, the free market itself was phased out and replaced by not_free_market, because, in your words, "most efficient survive ... while the ones that were wacky to start with, or became so with time, are allowed to fade out."

Why is this not obvious?

Nazis.
Oh teh edge...

Now explain to me how free_market allowed the violence_market to come about?  Why did our problem-solving free_market ubermensch allow such a travesty to happen?
Is it what you call "best and most efficient"?
Or... Was it a cruel whim of our Mighty Reptilian Overlords?
Finally, does your free market exist today?  Did it ever exist?  Or is it just talk?

^Science knows...

That's not rocket fuel you smell, hdbuck.  That's the stench of despair

Dumping BTC 2 bi DOGE nao!

This is a case of "not even wrong."
Property is a complicated concept, as rigidly defined as, oh, let's say "fairness."
The notion of property of property predates farming.  The kill of a hunting party, for instance, is that party's joint property.
Babies, right after learning "mama," learn "mine!"

The concept of property does not require a government, or even an outside authority, but force:  "Yeah, I took it from you, now it's mine.  Whatcha gonna do about it?"
This is a huge thing you guys are poking.

  ~NotLambchop the Pataphysician.

Now blend in bitcointalk Alexa results, spice to taste, and serve!

Just for argument's sake, Fallling's approach is extremely cost (as in "invested time") effective.  Don't assume that you are the intended target--you're not.

"Success is the important thing. Propaganda is not a matter for average minds, but rather a matter for practitioners. It is not supposed to be lovely or theoretically correct. I do not care if I give wonderful, aesthetically elegant speeches, or speak so that women cry. The point of a political speech is to persuade people of what we think right. I speak differently in the provinces than I do in Berlin..."--Joseph Goebbels

Only if you're Rube Goldberg.  Otherwise no.

What are you talking about?  What do you mean by "unsafe"?!

And privacy?  We're talking about PayPal vs. CC here.  I'd suggest you don't buy underage hookers or blow with either.  Jeesh.

So...  You don't have an answer and just wanted to shitpost?

*
Since I don't see the CC charges (those being included in retail prices), I should see a pretty substantial discount when I pay with BTC.  How much, do you suppose?

Simpler than a stewed turnip!

That's because disruptive technology--old-fashioned economic modeling is obsolete

You're either saying that the market is inherently irrational, thus immune to rational analysis (by definition), or?
I'd rather know what the ignorant sheeple will do, not what some hypothetical rational actor should do.  The first influences the market, and helps me trade, the second?  Not so much

Dat hindsight...

The useful and prescriptive indicator being opinions of the ignorant?


Because many Bitcoiners consider it a store of value?

Horribly faulty logic.  BTC may be "even stronger," but its exchange rate is lower than it once was.  If the exchange rate continues on its downward trend, it's smart to sell, regardless of Bitcoin's eventual success.

Right.  "Engineer" and "stupid" are also not mutually exclusive.  Though when it comes to engineering, I'd be more tempted to listen to an engineer over a ditch digger.  Bigoted me

That's what most of us are here to cash in on--volatility.  Some of us make good calls, some bad.  Some, like you, claiming they don't make any calls, are indifferent to price volatility, and simply hodl no matter what.  For me, this begs the question:  What are they doing here?  Trolling?  Propagandizing?
 

I'm glad that you are happy with your choice.  It's the logic you used to back up your decision that's flawed.  If, like many of us, your goal is to make BTC, you're doing it wrong.  If your goal is to make fiat?  Still doing it wrong.

This is the speculation subforum, peopled by traders--speculators.  If you are indifferent to short-term price fluctuations, my guess is you're just in the wrong place.  Not bitching about you being off-topic, that's fine with me, as long as you understand that you are off-topic.  This is about BTC price, not eventual success or failure of Bitcoin.

TL;DR:  Knowing that Bitcoin will succeed is neat, but doesn't help me make money.
inb4 "selfish greedy etc., etc":  Speculation forum about money.

You and the market haven't been seeing eye-to-eye since 2013.  One of you is wrong, and teh market is definitive.  So yeah.

Protip: When reality (like falling BTC price and people selling) doesn't make sense to you, don't assume that, just 'coz you don't understand it, it's somehow "wrong" or nonsensical.
Keep trying to understand.
I'm rootin' for ya!

Yup.  In hindsight, i was being a prick.  Sorry.

I guess what crawled up my ass is "BTC price is falling but Bitcoin is stronger."  Exchange rate reflects the overall confidence in Bitcoin.
Adoption rate, politics, ease of use--these all are, at least theoretically, factored into the market price.
My original point was very simple:
If Bitcoin continues to get stronger, while its exchange rate continues to fall, it makes perfect sense to sell.  Seems reasonable to me.

Agreed?

oda.krell,
It's not that everything for me is about money for me--very few things are.  It's just that money is always about money.  Anyhow, recycling an old Hodler post from a securities thread (and continuing my dickishness)

Topic of this thread:  Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

Bitcoin
Price
Movement
Tracking

You could understand why I mistakenly assumed that this thread was about tracking Bitcoin price, right?

You.  If you don't understand what you're replying to--don't reply.  Hopefully, at least this is clear.

Look for the big red font!

No need to be upset.  You can post here.  Friends?

I see you're trying to make me feel bad, JayJuanGee, but I'm the easy-going sort.  That kind that forgives and turns the other cheek.
I'm gonna offer you my hand [of friendship] just one more time:



Friends?

Wee!

Common mistake.  You're seeing the classic Beelzebub formation

When you say "profitable," do you mean to say it costs you less in electricity to mine a coin than you could get for it at the current exchange rate?  If so, what do you mean by "not selling at a loss"?

Then I'm confused about the "not selling at a loss" bit.  If it's cheaper for him to mine, then he's "not selling at a profit."
Or does "profit" mean recouping the money from the hardware investment?

Bitcoin is internet money, impossible without it.
Who brought us internet?  Thaaat's right, DARPA.
And who funds DARPA?  You got it, the gubermint.
And whose bitch is the gubermint?  The bankers', that's whose!
100% banksters' trick!

You got a lot of explainin' to do, ChartBuddy

Seems that many in this thread are trading like I do my best not to do, something like this:
"I know the market should be doing X, and it's clearly not.  I know that I'm right and the market is wrong, so I'll just ignore it until it does X like I know it should."

Just don't turn into one of these
Those are almost as bad as bear wale manipulators with bees!

And you, n00b a little too fluent in bitcointalk lore!  I know your sort, Mr "I'm totally not falllling 'coz I hate on fallllling!"

Careful.  He (Ragnar/Fallling) is garnering your trust.  Once your defenses are down, he'll betray you in a dramatic true-believer-realizing-he's-been-duped about-face.

Treacherous, these trolls

The money revolution will not be televised.  Fight the power!



Bonus points:  Name the revolutionary money service in the pic

Yes, yes you are.  Party pooper  But everyone else wins

*Wonder if this pic was an intentional troll by Mr. Brewster?
--German Expressionism (Miasma/nightmare/breakdown of space/logic/reason; Germany's post WW 1 financial state<==Good Times!)
--Spectacular ...empty space.  Nothing in it

Every time I bring up potential pitfalls of Bitcoin on this forum (not even the tech, just mundane stuff like "you're not guaranteed world domination), I'm made to feel like I just molested baby Jesus.  And, unlike JorgeStolfi, I'm a Bitcoiner (not that it should matter).
How about we practice what we preach?

Why not?  How are you doing it?

Edit:  Nevermind, just don't do the bolded part, and you're good to go.

Just for the sake of completeness, there's at least one scenario you both overlooked:  Coming back in a month, and finding the exchange [and your money] gone

Wait, engineered by whom?  Hollywood/networks/youtube in on this?
Where are you from, grappa_barricata, and whose Kool Aid did you swig to think like that?

No.  Best you forget about it.



Edit: Could you give me an example of economic science and economic philosophy?
Also, check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science (haven't actually read the page, but should give you an idea of how blurry the line between science and phil. is).

Please.  Before writing, read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science

It's only wikip.  Learning lite.  Just enough to point to what you don't know.

adam crool 2 dogs

Science isn't about making models that perfectly replicate the systems they model (that would be duplicating a system).
It's about making models that work within relevant constraints, with sufficient descriptive and prescriptive power.  For instance, if I want to predict where a billiard ball goes, I can use Newtonian physics, without worrying about the quantum states of each particle that composes it.  I'm concerned with the macro system--getting a ball into the pocket, and the Newtonian model does the trick.
Or worry about modeling the interactions of gazillions of water molecules that flow past the blades of a hydro turbine to make the thing work.
Would you call that pseudo-science?  Am I missing your point?

We sorta did

I noticed a pattern:

^Not a wall.

Boredoms
Doldrums
Two so-so '90s bands

Nine dollars for me.  (Though it's always mourning 'round here  )

Nooo!  We can change!

The same number of coins is mined if there's one guy mining, or 1,000,000.  Why "less BTC for sale"?

Gentlemen!
Time to step up and preserve the value of my coin with your worthless fiat.  Buy now pl0x, rousing speeches ain't doing it

@riiiiising:  Don't let them get away with that shit--buy it out from under them!

Wholesome, humane free-range coin!

The miners need to unionize!

Post pics, age, health and dental records.  I'm sure we can hash out the details.  What are you looking to get?

IC.  Come back when you're ready to deal, but don't wait too long.

These humongous sells across the board are actually really bullish.

You guys worry too much...

It's the same pattern we've been seeing with every dump.  TL;DR: it's nothing.

What's stopping the other wales from buying now?  Are they all in cahoots?  You seem to understand these manipulators, how low do you suppose they'll drive the price?

His followers think the world of him...

Risto is unwell.  His stay at the sanatorium did little to alive his condition.  Risto is wealthy enough to survive outside of institution's walls, but those who take his advice...  I worry, riiiiising, I worry.

Just ignore it.  DANCE PARTY!

If only there was a way to hinder those manipulators, some sort of an agency to regulate the market...

Better idea:  We ALL could unionize and agree not to undersell each other like The Man wants us to!

Err...  Exchange price reflects ...BTC price on that particular exchange.  It is not meant to be a general indicator of Bitcoin's welfare.  It tells you how much you would have to pay for coin there.
Just like the prices on the side of an ice cream truck tell you how much you 'd have to pay for an ice cream cone from that truck.
Not how good ice cream is.
Not what a fair price for ice cream is.
Not how much you should expect to pay tomorrow.
Just what you have to pay there, now.

The exchanges are for-profit companies.  They exist to make money.  They don't have to be your teachers or even your friends.  The only recourse you have, if you think an exchange is not doing what it should, is not use the exchange.

Lol, I'm not saying what an exchange should be, or denying that exchanges' behavior affects Bitcoin.
I'm just explaining what an unregulated exchange IS--a for-profit operation that owes you nothing above what you can take from it.
Which, without regulations, government intervention on your behalf, or a standing army of your own, is NOTHING.

At times like these, faith could be such a comfort...

He's trolling.  Riiiising is fallling's mirror image.

Better than a digital clock showing 11:11.

Sure.  Bitcoin community is slowly reinventing the wheel.  Unregulated markets caused problems, that's why people invented regulations and regulated them.

I agree, unless by "outside force" you mean our beloved and all-powerful Lizard Overlords (may They reign forever!).
In a broader sense, too.  All the "statist" stuff--governments, laws, police and the military to enforce those laws--it's all just humanity trying to solve its problems.  No one in his right mind likes these things (excepting, of course, our Merciful Lizard Overlords, who ARE love).

There are shitty laws to be changed and governments to be overthrown, but "therefore we don't need them" just doesn't follow.

No.

People just like round numbers.  Like 440 is the best cheap big block evah.  Besides, we're below 440 now.  Heading to 383...

Edit:  See?

empowering is right.  Decide now, pull the trigger (speaking figuratively here) when the 430 wall-let gets eaten.

Ask yourself a better question:  Will Bitcoin price go lower, regardless of whether it eventually hits 1k?
If the answer is yes, sell.

Sure there are many strategies, but if you're sure that the price will drop, and you want to make money instead of losing it, the only correct one is sell. 

^that.

If we all just pool our fiat together and make one great big buy, we could do it!!!  Come on everyone, AT EXACTLY 1:30 Eastern Standard Time, everyone BUY!

Ready?

Here we go!

No.  Most people buy bitcoin expecting it to lose value.  Because stupid.

It is possible to go below zero, take a look at Havelock charts:

A money changer trying to make the most money?  Who woulda thunked!

You and your husband are both young, and relatively debt-free, right?

Gentlemen!  Rocketry?

^The hardest part.

*boop*

Without them, the world would not stop spinning.  The same is true for mankind as a whole.  Not getting your sarcasm.

For a currency unbacked by a state or a closed economy, talking about "fundamentals" is horseshit.

rhymes

You're right, it's just that I find it hard to separate "speculative" from "intrinsic" (in the economics sense of the word) value, when it comes to money.

Why?  As a Bitcoiner, I applaud you.  The more you buy, the more my coin's worth

Make it do something or I'm calling the cops

Gentlemen, make it do something!

^Nice article: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/09/feds-label-bitcoin-miner-maker-butterfly-labs-as-systematic-deception/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+arstechnica%2Findex+(Ars+Technica+-+All+content)

Manipulative micropooping by miniature dwarf bear whale in progress

440

ITT: Bitcoin trolls everyone.

Gentlemen!
As tempting as it may be, I must remind you:



That is all.  You may now return to bickering.

Gentlemen!  The issue at hand is much simpler than it appears.  Allow me to illustrate:



*The night crew can't be trusted with Bitcoin.  Exchanges should remain open only between 9am and 5pm, EST

In most of US, you wouldn't be able to afford your lifestyle, period.  I lived on $2k a month (NYC) and trust me, there was no talk of "villas" or saving

Wisdom beyond your years  Just a pic that popped into my mind.  Joseph Szabo.

Well I saved my pennies and I saved my dimes
For I knew there would be a time
When I would buy a brand new 409

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frtVqCZub-0

Comrades!
Stay vigilant against government infiltrators and market manipulators!
          Together, we're strong!

@adam:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=796276.0

You're grossly mistaken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

That's probably because supercomputers don't use intel x64 architecture  Just guessing.

^Daddy issues?



Stop being stingy and invest in an operating system designed by adults for adults

Bitcoin will continue to be inflated throughout your lifetime

Because your credit card company guarantees your CC account.  It gets hacked, you lose nothing.  Bitcoin gets hacked?  A different story

We are comparing BTC to [your_fiat_of_choice] here.  The risk of BTC being hacked is your direct risk--you get hax0rd, ur muny's gone.
The risk of a CC getting hacked is indirect, an insignificant amount of fiat of the "fiat market cap" gets owned.  Besides, you think they print that shit at will anyhow,, so how much dif. could a finite theft make?

Besides #2:  Them banksters are prob'ly running Windows=no bash   We also know NSA has a back door & will instantly pwn the cr00ks

If you can't see any difference between the two...

He's right, you know.  Just a little bit more and we'll reach

Hopefully.  Just love absurd propaganda posters.

OK, I'll take the bait.  Tell me how.

Gotcha.
Calculated for $.05, and $200. Sort'a stuck calculating $2,000.  How do I convert "snowball's chance in hell" into numbers?

You guys are too hard on BitChick.  She's Christ-like!  Remember He complimented the money changers for bringing some volume to the Temple, and made an excellent impression on the locals, who honored Him with a big shindig on that nice Golgotha hill?   Well, WE are money changers.

Welcome, Church Lady!

ORLY?

No, you don't understand.  Some miners shut down their rigs, difficulty goes down, the price of mining falls, etc., etc.  The same # of coins could be mined on a couple of laptops.  There is no "set cost of production."

No need to panic.  False alarm.

Good point.
As long as you and one  other permabull think BTC is worth something & have a couple of $$ and two laptops between the two of you, the price is whatever the two of you decide it is

Save you some work:  No need for any updates

No.  Just us true believers left.



We're ready 4 U, Satoshi!  Take us!

Stamp volume is picking up!

Along with anyone with $$ to spend

Nonsense.

What is this?!  Some sort of Chinese pogrom on Bitcoiners?!

^yup.

Less talk, more buying.

Except for China

Oh yeah, they're really beginning to crack down...

To have cash for cheap coins, you got to sell them while they are expensive.  As in "pretty much any time since Dec. 2013."

Bulls, have you thought about YOUR CHILDREN?

ic.

ouch.

We're down $30 in 24h.  You haven't noticed?

8888 8888 8888 8888 8888 8888 8888 8888 8888 8888 8888 8888 8888 8888 8888 8888 8888 8888 8888 8888 8888


*Adult.

Still I try to find a reason   to believe



*71, I think.  371.  Soon.

...easier still if BTC hits $1.

Twelve more jitters like this one to bring us down to zero

That's the beauty of hope--it's always the last thing to die

If you think you had a bad day...
...my "8888" post is on page 8887 now

Bigger than NeoBee, even!

Gentlemen!
I'm going out for a smoke.
Please behave yourselves and don't break my Bitcoin while I'm out.

Remember a couple of weeks ago we were bumping against the 80s?



the 480s

Let's get busy, Gentlemen!

Bitcoin ain't gonna buy itself.

How much did you get for $10? <==serious question

Do you remember the exchange rate by any chance (or a link to the info on their site to check their rates/fees without creating an account)?

And they use stamp exchange rate?  Just wondering how they make money.

Thanks.

^A Bitcoin charity?  Now we're talking!

Koolaid?  Horrible oral absorption.
Boot it FTW, permabulls!

More excellent news.
Bullish!

Chinese government is really cracking down.  This roughly translates to "Know [Your] Bitcoiner! Spot And Report."

http://www.binaryhexconverter.com/binary-to-ascii-text-converter <==USE IT, NERDS!

Bulls start titrating themselves with organic solvents to to make their antics appear reasonable

http://www.positivemoney.org ?
Moar shocking truths:  https://www.stormfront.org



Lucid thinkers like yourself are our only hope!

Because learning about money from websites like positivemoney is like learning about the world from stormfront?

^
Sometimes market news is just too depressing, but, if you insist...



P.S:  I've been holding this 383 for you.  Pick it up or I'm junking it.

The "study" is tripe.  Who cares what % of your money is printed out as physical bills?  Would you be happier if all of it was?

That wall @360...  Someone doesn't want the price falling lol.

360 wall legit buys.  390?  Manipulation!

It's not "they" as much as "it."  Or "is."  Plurality is just an illusion we maintain for you lower beings.



  ~Coo coo ca choo.

...or a nice nap and maybe some vidya later.

Nice try tho

Some lucky d00d sold a bunch of coin @385.

Gentlemen! Which one of you budding von Brauns is responsible?



Enough!  Rocketry won't be tolerated!

Good morning, campers!

As long as BTC has any value, and as long as there are deluded Bitcoiners who think they're sticking it to teh man by buying BTC, its safe to say "nah."
Just too tempting not to exploit.

When the dog bites
When the bee stings
When I'm feeling sad

<==

Hang in there!

@fonzie:  You didn't *really* wait for 400, did you?

*Of course you didn't.

Bitcoin is backed by science, magik and aliens.  We can't lose!

@nanobrain
'S long as you and your buddy keep mining with a couple of netbooks, Bitcoin will live.
But "a reasonable investment"?

More BTC that's now worth less.

Nah, because prisoner's dilemma/tragedy of the commons.  

Comrade, under Communism, unions do not exist.

The universe is racing towards heat death.  All of us will likely kick before that.  The question is timing and odds.

*If the $ collapses, God help us, 'coz Bitcoin would be the last thing on my mind.

@Raystonn:  Good point.  Where's your proof that 2 = 2?

Sorry, what did you mean by

I haven't told you what I think.
I have politely asked you a question.  The politeness is clear from the word "sorry," while the question smiley at the end obviates the whole magella being a question.

So, sans the etiquette:  What did you mean?

I'm seeing a distinct head and three shoulders pattern.

Whoa!  So many depressing cliches packed into a single line of text.  Economy of language

No no, empowering, thanks for bringing all these problems I've never considered before to my attention.  National debt out of control, you say?  Whould'a thunked?  And the underlying base of our monetary system, it's flawed you say?  That certainly gives me plenty to think about.

So TL:DR is "Buy Bitcoin nao"?

Day traders

If that's so, what of Bitcoin?  Fell ~60% rel. $


Oh yeah, almost forgot...

...
Uranium was never expensive and THEN cheap

The world knows exactly what Bitcoin can do.  That's why the price is tanking.

Wasn't it radium water?  You might also dig the x-ray shoe fitting machine (google pics).
Don't have the data on Radium prices for way back then, but the first chart that popped up looks like BTC

You bringing up radium water made me think of that other revolutionary modern wonder--the X-ray shoe fitting machine.
It was touted as the best-ever, 100% scientific approach to fitting shoes, and, in a way, it was.



It boosted sales and was quite popular for a while.  Unfortunately, much like radium water, and for about the same reasons, it fell out of favor.
Besides, in most people's eyes, it was a solution looking for a problem.  Sorta' like Bitcoin.
Soon, the most forward-looking shoe salesmen returned to using this crude gizmo:


Parallels are hard to ignore.

The uranium price chart?  I put that up just for lulz, only because it resembled the BTC price--not implying any other similarities.

*boop*

Tardgedy

Nah.  It's not about those 3 dollars.  More the 700 dollars that came before that.  Some claim it's a trend