Wow cool. I'm going to mine for a while on this guys behalf. If he has success with this he may start spreading the good word.

Sounds more like a problem with bitfinex...

Hm. Interesting. I had trouble withdrawing iota from bitfinex myself but I can't say that I ever tried to withdraw anything else from there so I'll take your word for it.

Also. Smart call buying monero

Nothing makes normies freak out quite so much as when they finally realize that what you mean by 'we' is yourself and your fellow members of the white race. So I try to save it for that.

We only have to get to the point where machines are better than humans at improving the design of machines. That's when the trend takes off like a rocket. Like a chart of bitcoin in 2017. All bets are off when that day comes.

Subsidizing miners with block rewards only makes it more difficult to perform a doublespend or a denial of service attack by producing empty blocks. It doesn't really motivate people to use the chain. Normal users are ignorant of how bitcoin works under the hood. They don't care about this stuff. They would only care if someone did successfully doublespend or DOS the block chain. So as long as transaction fees are sufficient to incentivize miners to collectively produce enough hashing power to prevent this than there is no reason to expect the drop off in block rewards to negatively effect bitcoin in any way.

I think it is you who does not understand how bitcoin works.

Is this real? How do I use it? Or what is a good resource to explain how to use it?


OMG I love it!

Understand what it is and how it works (in theory). I'm wondering how do I physically utilize those nodes in that picture to my advantage right now?

Ah ok. Lame. There probably wont be pressure until transaction fees get too high again. But I expect there should and will be a great deal of pressure once that happens.


Thanks for the clarification.

Cultist? I don't even own any bitcoin right now.


Expensive yes. Unsustainable maybe. But it certainly isn't clear that it is unsustainable. Perhaps it can continue to be sustained. It is definitely possible.


No... It's redistributing capital from HODLers. HODLers who have voluntarily opted into this system. Again you really don't seem to understand how bitcoin works or maybe just basic economics.


It isn't free right now...


You sound poor to me. You seem to think 10,000 dollars is a lot of money or something .


Again. Economicses r haurd. It's not cheaper to have savers pay instead of spenders. It's just a different group of people that is paying. And you have to think, hopefully scaling technologies will allow that 10,000 cost to be divided among many more people than it would currently be divided among with 1mb blocks and 250 byte transactions.


Except that this transition from HODLers paying to spenders paying incentivizes people to just HODL more and harder than they are already doing right now.


Yea I actually think there is a pretty good chance that your conclusions are correct. It's just your argument's that are bad. Bitcoin will probably be replaced by better cheaper technology in the future that processes transactions cheaper and more efficiently. I mostly agree with your general point. Just not your claim that bitcoin is a ponzi. That is a stupid claim. Satoshi implemented the best solutions to decentralized digital currency that were known and available at the time. It is very unlikely that satoshi schemed to lure everyone into an open system that would later become restrictive.

No but seriously. That fat finger at 1:30 in the morning on Feb 24th looks suspiciously like the manipulation that I have been watching for years in the gold and silver markets. All one big moronic sell order that no rational person would do on purpose. In the wee hours of the morning. Knocked down below a key support level. At this point I'm just assuming it was a fat finger but if it becomes a pattern, a regular occurrence, I might have to rethink that.

No no not that kind of manipulation. I'm sorry I should have been more specific. I am not talking about manipulation for profit. I'm talking about the FED or the BIS and its constituent banks attempting to prop up their own monetary regime(s) by systematically suppressing the price of their competitors. Again I'm not saying that this is happening. One data point does not make a pattern but it is something to keep an eye on.

Of interesting note is that nothing before, during or after price crash caused the mem-pool to increase notably in size. Meaning people did not rush to move bitcoin to exchanges, not very many anyway. It appears to have made very few people freak out.

Would you like to propose a better alternative or just grouse about?

Sure I love silver. You might say I'm a silver maximalist. All this crypto speculation is just to get more silver in the end. However several points. You can't push silver through an ethernet cable; You cant carry your silver over a border easily; The infrastructure has not yet been built out for simple silver authenticity validation; And asteroid mining will someday massively disrupt the precious metals sector.

Also it's a crypto ledger is a pretty piss poor permissioned ledger if transaction validators do not have any unseful information about the transactions they are validating. No ability to gain any information about transactions means no ability to discriminate between them means all rejection of permission would be arbitrary in nature. You could reject people at random but never for a particular reason intrinsic to how they are using the currency or what they are using it for.

You are missing that silver has one huge advantage over cryptos that makes it still important. It is non arbitrary. Cryptos are schemes that are hugely arbitrary in their implementation. Why is bitcoin better than litecoin? Why is it better than doge? Fundamentally it isn't. You might say something about it's brand or network. But monero is technologically superior and something will come that will be better than that. Cryptos will probably always be a tumultuous space as new better tech unseats the old over and over again. Wonderful for speculators, manageable for spenders, and terrible for savers. Silver on the other hand is sort of like money from god. It and gold of course. There are only a finite number of elements and the market settled on those two as the best monies, plain and simple, end of story. Silver doesn't get usurped by liteSilver which gets usurped by dogeSilver which gets usurped superUltraXXXSilverV. This is the sense in which I say that it is non arbitrary compared to value transfer protocol schemes and this is the sense in which it will retain its importance.

Also no need to leave it in the "safe keeping" of a jew. Plenty of nice goy out there who will look after it for you.

Do not mistake this for an indictment of Crypto-currencies. I LOVE cryptocurrencies. You know that though.

Also don't mistake it for a defense of the guy you were responding to. He is an idiot. I know this.

A good indication that it might be a good time to buy! The worse the sentiment the better the value.

Haha well that logic only applies to real assets. I just invented a rare pepe. I have no artistic skill at all. Infact you cant even tell its a pepe. But i'll sell it to you right now for a million dollars. You know it's a great value because the sentiment is so bad that no one even knows it exists!

You sure do like to make a lot of assumptions. No I prefer proof of stake. I long ago thought through it and came to my own determination that POS does in fact work. As much as I love fluffypony he is wrong about that one. I just don't let my preferences in that regard get in the way of making money and being involved in great projects. Even if you are correct in that it is a necessarily centralizing force, that centralization would still take time. Plenty of time to make lots of money speculating and make lots of transactions utilizing its capabilities. Again you cant push a silver coin through an ethernet cable. This sector is needed and as long as it is needed it will continue to exist and as long as it exists people are going to capitalize the best projects even if those projects are flawed.

The entropy in a closed system would tend towards a more and more disordered state. It would move naturally from low entropy to a high entropy state. Without external forces inputting energy to lower the entropy back down. That would be a good thing inside a closed crypto system. Order is collusion. Order is cartels. Order is centralization. Order is balkanization/concentration of the units of account. Within the context of the internals of the closed system of course.

*edit* I admit I have never thought about the problem from this angle before until you put me on the spot right there. My appraisal of the viability of proof of stake did not factor in any theories about entropy.

Sure you will buddy. Look you just gotta realign your expectations a little bit.



Just ask Carlos Matos. There is no problem so big that it cant be solved by a positive attitude.


Soooooo did you guys see this? I was watching transactions live and the mother of all transactions scrolled by right before my eyes. In all my years of transaction watching I have never seen anything even in the same universe as this. It's was like going whale watching and seeing the occasional orca swim through I'm pretty impressed then cathulu casually strolls by. Thoughts? https://blockchain.info/tx/c875eb38c6bc141abd92a9014f985b72f5500f88e8722d29e1c8d274b738d744

It's 132 million dollars

Would a transaction from an exchange look like that though? 1 input and 1 output? A transaction with 1 input and 1 output is almost certainly going to be authored by a human hand not an algorithm at an exchange. My best guess is that it is someone moving funds into or out of cold storage. With the price crashing which of those two is more likely? Seems bearish to me.

Shrink your images down bro. That monser is just rude. It takes up the whole dang screen. I mean maybe take the whole screen for a chart or something useful, not a meme.

Well guys I did the unthinkable that I told myself I would never do it. For the first time in my life I tried to get clever instead of just hodling. I just sold my bitcoin with the intention of buying back lower. Eeek. This is terrifying.

All of it. But all of my bitcoin does not equal all of my crypto. Not even close.

Time will tell. I have a stop order in place of course. Worst case is I lose some not all.

Well again bitcoin is a small part of my portfolio. But because every technical indicator is flashing red. No I'm not a big believer in technical analysis. But when ALL of them signal red at the same time. Well that's not great. Basically that up trend we were all enjoying since the beginning of February is completely obliterated. Signaling that this is was all a protracted bull-trap and the trend from before February is the real trend. Additionally you should understand that 9,000 dollars is a GREAT price for me. The 9,000 that is depressing to you is god damn amazing to me. It is beyond what was even my even most fanciful wildest dream. Look at my account profile. I've been here since 2010. This profit that I just took is enough to retire on. If I leave it in bitcoin maybe it goes really really low and I have no retirement, I have to go get a damned job.

Haha maybe that's all true on some sub conscious level. Boy, you're a prickly little fella aren't ya?

Still not seeing a capitulation candle.

Don't forget https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=bitcoin very useful tool as well.


It's more useful as a positive indicator than a negative one. When you see one the price is almost certainly about to reverse, how ever the absence of one doesn't mean it isn't going to reverse. Looking back at the history of bitcoin we see them ~50% of the time.

Wow an old face. Cool to see someone from so long ago still around.

Personally, I would wait for either a capitulation candle or a reversal of the MACD on the 1 day chart. It's dangerous to try to catch a falling knife. Better to wait for some solid sign of a trend reversal. Sure you will miss the bottom that way, but not by a lot, and atleast you wont get wrecked by further decline. We could easily be on our way to five or six thousand. Remember, 5k, the previous high before the run up to 20k, never got tested. All that said, buying now is definitely a better idea than not buying at all, if those were the options. Well thats my 2 satoshis anyway.

I still use it. Tradingview keeps being annoying and wanting me to "make an account"... grumble grumble.

Also his comment was a joke.

I have never been so sure in my life that bitcoin was going to go bullish early march. I was approaching 99% sure of my bullish sentiment. And I'm not usually wrong. I'm willing to admit when I dont know, which is often, but when I decide that I do know I have always been right. That kick in the teeth of being not just a little bit wrong but so extraordinarily 100% 180 degrees wrong sent me from the most bullish I have ever been to the most bearish. At this point I'm waiting for a retest of 6k atleast.

It really really really should have been off to the races from like the third of this month. This pullback should not have been as dramatic as it was...

Cabin in the mountains is more my speed.



My baby is almost done! One more month or so.


Is this a thread for talking about price predictions or a thread for circle jerking about the moon? Is that the only opinion I am allowed to have? BUY BUY BUY MOON MOON MOON.

Honestly. I know this sounds stupid but intuition. I have been staring at bitcoin charts for 8 years now. It made a very solid looking bottom with very reasonable growth coming out of that bottom, a healthy and calm retracement down to about half of that run up then further upside that broke out past the last high. It's just what bitcoin charts have looked like to me when the bottom was in in the past. It looked like textbook - people are done freaking out so therefore we can resume the more general trend that is up. And ultimately I am a bull long term. So when ever people stop freaking out and cool their heads after a mania bitcoin tends to resume the general multi year bull trend.

I hope that made some sort of sense.

If this were a science we could all be rich. I cant provide evidence for why the price will go up or down in the short run. That is an unreasonable standard. No one can do that. I am going to do my best to explain my position as clearly as possible. If that isn't good enough for you than you can just piss right the fuck off. Also let me be clear. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm just sharing my experience and my thought processes. If they fail to meet the expectations of your vastly superior intellect well then too damn bad. I do the best I can and I have done pretty well for myself so far.

Look at my post here from a few pages back.


Hopefully that passes your "logic" requirements. I was the most bullish I have ever been at the start of this month. In fact I was so bullish that I was actually saying yes to normies that asked me if they should buy bitcoin. I hadn't done that since pre 1000. I was partly so bullish because of the logical articulable reasons described above, but also partly because of intuition. I have been staring at these charts every day for 8 years. I have gotten to the point where it is pretty rare that I am wrong. If you want evidence for that, than too bad, I haven't put any public predictions on record that I know how to find because again, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

The main reason I'm bearish is because I was the most bullish I have ever been on bitcoin in my life just a few days ago and this decline took me more off guard than any thing else ever has in this market. I have never been that wrong before. I was so wrong that I actually gave the normies that asked me for advice the wrong advice for the first time ever. So I adapted. I took some of my crypto portfolio into USD and but put in a stop to prevent me from being punished too hard.

If you can't respect that than I'm sorry. I just gave you everything I have. If you still want to accuse me of lacking logic or reason than we will just have to part ways and stop talking to each other. I don't want to do that though because you are a legendary and I respect that and we are on the same team.

Hm maybe. I'm an american though so I cant get on bitfinex. What do you suppose is the best alternative to bitfinex for leveraged contracts like that?

Ok. You have annoyed me beyond what I am willing to subject myself to. I'm ignoring you for a while. Have a nice time.

Doubt it. I bet it'll hold at 6. One of the most watched TV shows was all about cryptocurrency just last night. They haven't forgotten about us. The world is still excited about our sector. They are still watching. They are still interested. They are still greedy.  Give them half an excuse, show them just a little green, and they will be clamoring to buy at prices they were dreaming they could have bought in at just a few months ago.


Thanks!

Ok, sorry, I fixed it

He is on my ignore list now so you don't have to worry about me engaging any more.

The always on requirement of nodes might be onerous on individuals looking to make mundane day to day payments, hopefully that will be solved, but for IOT, industrial applications, business to business micro transactions, high frequency trading and dozens of other things I can't think of right now it is going to be no drawback at all and lightning could be a killer app for them right away.

I thought his piece was really fair. And that says a lot because I really don't like that pretentious fart sniffer one little bit. This sector needs to be ridiculed. In many ways it has and is going the wrong direction. He attacked all of the nonsense that deserved it and none of the great projects that don't.

And sure nobody likes Dan. But everyone wants to be Dan.

The moment they finally get that nailed down Elon lands on mars and thumbs his nose at them.

I was skeptical too until the moment those rockets landed themselves back on earth. That was amazing. Did you see that footage?

Haha yea baring conspiracy theories of course.

Well anyway it was all just a joke anyway. I just thought it was a funny image to imagine elon standing on mars thumbing his nose at earth buracrats who just finally managed to achieve planet wide regulation.

Paul Watson is pretty cool. I don't understand why he associates with that guy...

Anyway, while we are on this topic, I have to share this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaPDFcc1EWU

Bitcoin looked totally indecisive there for a few days. Now it looks like its making the first hints of a decision.

Why would you talk to someone who just stated that he has you on ignore? Are you missing a few brain cells?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3phscjgc_A

Haha I'm old.

Target 6000 where I bet it will hold.

I can try my best. So there are several different lines of support. 7500 is the previous high before the monster rally so that will probably be first. Next is the recent swing low of 6000. Then you have 2 highs ago that never got tested. That was at about 5000. The final line of support is the high at about 1300 from early march of last year. So hopefully one of these will arrest the decline. The question is which. I think the resistance will be very strong at 6000. Are there still people out there interested in bitcoin? Are there greedy people still on the sideline? Is 6000 going to look like an enticing price to them? I think yes. Anyway I'm not going to try to catch a falling knife myself. I will probably just watch and wait for some signs of a recovery before I buy back in.

Grats man!

Use this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=996318

I feel bad. I give all of my merit to like the same 5 guys... But it's just always the same 5 guys that end up saying the things that are actually insightful that hadn't occurred to me... Pareto principle I guess.

Is there like a chart somewhere for this? Can you link?

Thanks! I go to that site all the time but never noticed that little number tucked away in the corner.

Probably not. The world was oblivious to crypto back then. Now everyone knows about it. It's on almost everyone's radar. Totally different environment today. Extrapolating the past into the future probably isn't useful in that particular capacity.

Wait wait I've got one. We should all be happy about this decline, it's just a chance to buy more cheaper!

Maybe just keep a stop order about 1000 dollars off the low? True you will miss the bottom by 1000 bucks but you wont buy at 8000 just to see it fall to 4000.

Lol no I mean the recent low, 7916. And if that gets broken down to say 7500 then replace it with that.

Yea like I said to someone else here. Just keep a stop order 1000 dollars off the low. You will miss the bottom by 1000 dollars but if it goes to 1300 you will be getting it for 2300 instead of blowing your powder at 6000 only to watch it fall to 1300. Well anyway it's just an idea. Curious what others think about it. This idea assumes that by the time it has a full 1000 dollar bounce than the bottom is probably in. Thoughts on that assumption?

It means, as bad as the bleeding is in bitcoin, the altcoins are actually bleeding a little bit harder.

https://coinmarketcap.com/charts/#dominance-percentage

Wait a second... if we could get a beautiful girl like Lauren to identify as a man, and the left thinks that identifying as a man makes someone a man, that would make us gay according to their rules. Then we could get protected status!

The most recent 1 day candle closed below the 1 week swing low. I'm not seeing the signs of positivity but I'm curious what you are seeing.


Doesn't he think 90% of the worlds gold is in the grand canyon? I'm thinking of the right guy right?

Yea. I had a good buddy from WOW. My wife and I spent more time playing with this dude than anyone else. One day he mentioned something about where he lived and we were like ummm that sounds familiar... turns out he lived, and I kid you not, about 20 minutes away. So we met up. 2 other dudes from guild lived in the same area cuz they where his IRL friends brought into guild. It was fun enough. We watched a few movies. It wasn't the greatest thing ever or anything. We only did it the one time. But it was fine. I still see him pretty often since he works at my local gunshop now and I do love to loiter at the gun shop. But let's be honest, I'm there for the guns not him.

About how much is it all worth relative to the bitcoin needed to acquire it?

Powerful. I am going to try to always keep this perspective in mind.


Thanks. Yea 15% is what I was wondering.

Cant put my finger on it but this one feels different from the other green candles we have seen on the way down. Maybe something about the strong bounce off of the 7500 support...

It's not bcash you guys. Come on you guys. It's bitcoin cash, you guys. Guyyyyyyyyyyyys.

Everyone has pretty much always lived under a mafia boss. The taxes aren't that bad. The regulations that make it so difficult to achieve success are worse and the immigration policy that erodes our culture and the social fabric is worse even still.

Yea, I'm American. Crap you narrowed it down from 7 billion to 300 million. That's like 23 times closer to figuring out my identity!

Is there any evidence AT ALL that satoshi's vision was to "scale" bitcoin by cramming more and more transactions into blocks until the point where full node operators need to open a data center and purchase a T1 line? Where the hell does ver get this crap about this being "satoshi's vision"?

Can you be more specific? What has nothing to do with the number of transactions?

ooooookkkkkk. You are off on a different planet buddy.

Doesn't legendary mean anything? You understand that transactions are made of data right? Processing more of them requires more bandwidth than processing less of them, right? Why am I having this ridiculous conversation? Are you high?

Yea you're screwed buddy. I just put up a sell order. That means the price is about to moon.

What altcoin actually has real utility? Monero, ethereum and maybe filecoin (when it comes out)? And of those 3 only one is a money. So really only Monero should be capitalized beyond what is necessary for on network token utility. Bitcoin dominance should probably be 80% or more.

As a business owner I wouldn't price anything in bitcoin. Not yet anyway. Maybe after wider adoption it's volatility calms down. But you can still price your products in ounces of gold or silver and take bitcoin as payment. So that whole "bitcoin cant be a currency" thing is dumb. It may or may not ever be a good money. But it makes a fine currency even right now.

Not only that but now that we have a real scaling solution we can carefully increase the block size. Double the block size and you double that 1 million to 2 million.

I don't understand the obsession with the mining profitability. So some miners will go offline and the hash rate will adjust. Is there something that I'm missing? Some way in which this is important that hasn't occurred to me?

Depends. For the most part there is no such thing as "building a base" like people like to say. If it meets strong resistance that arrests the decline but languishes in a trading range at ~6k than expect further downside. Double bottom is bearish unless there is a strong bounce.

Here is the answer to the question posed on the chart. Bitcoin needs to look more like some of these other technologies on this chart before said cycle can be broken by maturity.

I would point out that almost all of the people in those houses on that youtube channel have smart phones.

Time is compressed these days. Each boom and each bust is compressed into a shorter and shorter amount of time. I am a lot less sure of my predictions on how low it will go than I am with the prediction that, how ever low it ends up going, I do not think this will be a protracted multi year long ordeal like it was in the past.

https://youtu.be/oHUIU3HG1rk?t=1m



Here is an article with a nicly overlayed chart but at 3x speed.

http://telegra.ph/Inferno-market-outlook-The-Double-Bubble-Analysis-03-16

Credit to who ever posted this in the thread earlier.

What is this "FSB news" that you speak of?

I don't usually find "drawing triangles" to have any use. But that triangle seems to match up perfectly with the next area of support. Maybe you found the one triangle that actually means something!

Wow goat. I miss that guy. He was a riot. Haven't heard from him in years.

IDK it always looked like a bulltrap to me and this is right on time if it is.

A proper trend reversal will begin with a higher low. Fingers crossed.

Test of 6000 incoming. If it bounces hard off of it than good times ahead. If it languishes around 6k then we will probably see 5k. If it cuts through 6k like a knife through butter then... *gulp*...

not my proudest fap

That was obviously a joke... I am definitely not a homosexual.

Not obvious at all. It could have held and started going up at 14k. Would have all depended on whether there were enough bullish rich people out there willing to put in a floor at that price. There could have been. Infact one single determined billionaire more than there actually were would probably have been more than enough. It wouldn't have been hard to believe if there were. I wouldn't have been surprised. Turns out there weren't.

It's truely amazing how much silver you can buy with a little bit of bitcoin. When I first got started in this in 2011 it was all about the precious metals but I hedged a little by taking like 10% of my PM net worth and putting it into crypto. Since you know they were competing for the same market and crypto tech was so novel and interesting. Now the amount of silver I can get with my bitcoin now is beyond my wildest dreams of the time. THANK YOU BITCOIN!

In other countries that have no empire the citizens of those countries pay the inflation tax to their own elites. It's all internal.The USA exports it's inflation. That is the benefit of empire and the reason for the empire.

Hey look! It's a bitcoin bull buying the dips! https://youtu.be/XpcRhflUbcg?t=1m54s

Will you look at that. That's a nice bounce. I wonder if the bitcoin rocket only needed to come on such a low orbit path for slingshot gravity assist. That's how rockets work right?

Yea I really wanted to see the bounce off of 6000. This bouncing early makes the whole thing suspect. Wish someone could have held their load for a few hundred more dollars.

Oh my god. That literally made me queasy.

That will be very cool if you pegged the bottom like that.

One of these days it'll be real. Could be this one but probably not this one. One of these days one of the ones that it probably isn't will be the one that it is.

A large swath of very powerful Jews consider themselves to be at war with both whites and nationalism. Not to be confused with white nationalists. I mean the white race generally and the idea of a world comprised of nation based political units. So yea, considering many of their most powerful members are at war with us, it's not that unreasonable to be fixated on them. If you don't believe it go watch their media for a few minutes or attend one of their universities and see what they are teaching these days.

It should be about the most bullish thing ever. Without censorship there is no need for blockchain. We may as well just use a database. Blockchain exists and is useful because it circumvents censorship. With war comes lots of censorship. And I don't mean of media really. I mean transaction censorship. Censorship of capital flows. On the extreme end Russia could still sell securities and equities to Americans despite sanctions using blockchain. "Illegal" trade can still be conducted between the two nations that never would have even been possable in the cold war thanks to blockchain. They are creating the environment that block chain technology was designed to thrive in. They are making us be needed.

Personally I don't think so. The volatility had gotten so low there that the price was deciding which way to break out. It looks to me like a decision was made.

Wait. Can I be anti-anti-anti-semitic without being anti-semitic?

I highly doubt you will find that very fulfilling for very long.

Please enlighten me. The early rhetoric from ver and the bcash community turned me off to it so much that I have had no interest in learning anything about the project since. So really all I know is that they intended to "scale" by increasing the blocksize and that ver is the only one true disciple of satoshi capable of correctly divining his will (holy crap he really does think hes bitcoin Jesus). Both absolutely ludicrous propositions. Has anything changed? Are they proposing realistic alternatives to lightning for scaling? Are there new developments that I should be aware of?

I certainly am not willing to use up that much of my home bandwidth. And even if I was, 500 tx/s isn't nearly enough to be a good long term goal. I mean if that was all that we were capable of achieving than it would be enough for bitcoin to be a useful niche technology, that would even be true if we were stuck forever at 7tx/s, but both are less than ideal.

But ok, so increasing block size is a useful scaling vector. I actually think most people on the main chain side of the divide agree with that, I know I do. Other main chain supporters in this tread, how do you feel about responsible block size increases that correspond to improvements in computer hardware and networking infrastructure? It seems to me that the divide is not between willingness to increase blocksize or not, its a disagreement on whether we should be taking an extremely restrictive uni directional approach to this problem vs a more comprehensive multi faceted approach. I just don't see how someone can argue for the former.

Haha guilty . I have never done that specific thing, but yea, I'm that guy.

Yea well maybe if that had been the rhetoric of the big blockers at the time there wouldn't have developed this schism. If they had said, look we need to increase the block size enough to get us over this hump until we can roll out some more practical second layer solutions and pressed for that I bet they could have gotten our capitulation. Instead Ver comes out ranting and raving about how he is the one true emissary of Satoshis will and that Satoshi wanted huge blocks, big enough that everyone and their grandma can fit how ever many trivial transactions as they wish in there and that that WAS the solution to scaling, not a temporary stop gap measure.

Your argument sounds reasonable enough but they are not the arguments I am familiar with from the bcash community. I think perhaps you may be projecting rather than accurately describing the general consensus in the community. Unless you are trying to run defense for them by presenting them in a more rational light.


They did that because their hand was forced by you guys. No one wanted to roll that out as early as they did in that state. They were trying to save bitcoin from Ver's hair brained machinations.


Like I said before. I'm in favor of bigger blocks. I am not in favor of Ver's loony vision for the future of bitcoin.


Nothing to really say to this part.


In his defense I did egg him on.

What, did they get some sort of commitment from a federation of miners/pools that when they receive conflicting transactions in their mempool they will mine the one they encountered first rather than the one with the larger fee? That could be done with like 2 lines of code. If it's more interesting than that than I will go do some research.

There is no way to know when a transaction was issued. All a big miner can know is when he first saw it and he could share it with all of the other big miners. Then someone who is being paid could reach out to the big miners and ask if they have yet witnessed any conflicting transactions. If the answer is no and the receiver is aware of the miners policy of accepting the first transaction that they encounter in the event of conflicts, the receiver could then relatively reliably trust a 0 confirmation transaction. A degree of centralization in mining would help with this. I am imagining this is what jbreher meant by "bcash has 0 confirmation transactions". If it is than I'm not interested, if it's something else than I am.

I am imagining it because it seems very likely to be the case, not because you ever said it was the case.

Holy bananas. Is anyone else looking at this. https://coinmarketcap.com/charts/#dominance-percentage Bitcoin dominance at 37%. This is not good... Having random scam coins be more valuable than bitcoin does not bode well for the future of the sector. If that trend continues and becomes exacerbated enough I will probably have to start thinking about divesting. A crypto sector where most of its capitalization is represented by scam coins is one that is doomed to crash.

Sorry to rain on the party... It's not calculated or anything. I just happened to notice that little figure just now.

Thanks for the perspective. That number freaked me out when I saw it and perhaps I got a little emotional. You have a very good point. Another example would be something like ripple that claims a marketcap of 34billion but some massive % of the currency supply is locked up and held off market while coinmarketcap still multiplies the price times that locked up off market supply to arrive at the market capitalization.


Do you really think I'm a troll?

I am aware of the phenomena. I have talked about it before myself but always in terms of off market currency supply like in the form of ripple foundation holdings or dash masternode reserve requirements.

I haven't been active in this thread for years. If you have been I think you would know this. I started frequenting this thread a couple months ago and I certainly don't read even most of the posts. Far too many come through in a day to read even most of them.

I found HairyMaclairy's post to be insightful and illuminating. Even though I was aware of some of the shortcomings of market capitalization calculations I hadn't realized it was quite as bad as the example that he gave and it hadn't occurred to me that there is as direct of a connection between the total number of altcoins and the bitcoin dominance as there is. It hadn't occurred to me that there was a mechanism where one could make an infinite number of altcoins and they would never stop degrading the dominance of bitcoin (since all you would need is 1 trade to set a price and no requirement for any amount of liquidity at all) while not actually representing any real effect on the real world. I guess I kind of intuitively thought there would be a sort of diminishing return on the effect of new altcoins on dominance, and there certainly was early on, but I just now was forced to think through the mechanism that has caused me to realize that the returns probably plateaued at some point and stopped diminishing.

Well anyway I definitely am not above trolling, I have trolled once or twice in my life, but I haven't done it anywhere on bitcointalk except maybe a little bit in the dash thread.

I try really hard to be. Part of being reasonable means accepting hard truths sometimes.


Where the heck are you finding these stats? On my end it says I have 1049 merit. I didn't realize I was in some sort of competition with anyone anyway. I definitely never gloated about my merit or tried to use it to argue from authority or anything like that. So I don't know where all this is coming from. I don't think your scheme would work very well anyway because the best way to get merit is to tell people what ever they want to hear. I think you would find that the people who filtered to the top of your system were the people who stroked everyone off the best.

Np mate. It's all good.


Agreed...


As much as I wish it weren't the case, as much as I wish I could say "my bitcoin is the bitcoin and that is a fact" the question of which bitcoin is "the real bitcoin" will, unfortunately, always be a matter of opinion not fact.

I am not defending Ver and his trash coin. I am as adamantly opposed to BCash as anyone here. All I'm saying is that any argument that you make that one bitcoin is objectively "the real bitcoin" breaks down and fails. It's like saying my mac and cheese recipe is the one true recipe and only mac and cheese that is maid with my recipe is REAL mac and cheese.

No I am not trolling. I really do believe what I have said and it is a conclusion that I arrived at after significant contemplation.

Well then make an argument for why your preferred fork is "the real bitcoin" that is not based in opinion or some sort of logical fallacy.

So if ver's fork had more nodes it would be the real bitcoin? Even though his ideas are total garbage?

Let me be clear guys. I share your opinion. It is my opinion as well that bitcoin core is the real bitcoin. All I am arguing is that that is my opinion and not a fact that is in some way objectively valid.

In what fundamental sense is bcash different from bitcoin core that makes it the fork and not bitcoin core the fork of it? Bitcoin core has changed the consensus algorithm too just like bcash. We used to not have segwit enabled and bcash used to not have massive blocks. One isn't "the fork" they are each forks of the other.

So define your method of determining at which fork is "the real bitcoin" and show how it is in some way an objectively valid metric rather than just your opinion. If you throw on a half dozen other criteria than why are they the criteria that get to be used to determine which is "real"?

And answer me this. What if ver and his monstrosity totally took over the market and bitcoin core became a small group of hard core devotees? What if ver's monstrosity became even more centralized than our wildest nightmares but it still gained more and more support and almost everyone in the world was going along with it in every way including node count and what other metrics you want to use and everyone everywhere was calling it bitcoin? Would it then be the real bitcoin? Even though it was more like visa than the original vision of bitcoin? Or would the small group of core users be the real bitcoin?

I'm only doing it inside of this specific context, to make the argument more clear. I normally just say BTC to mean bitcoin core because, as I stated earlier, it is my opinion that bitcoin core is the real bitcoin.

I mean I hate doing this because it's getting really boring and I feel like everyone here should have just understood what I was saying by now but:

#1 So it's a democratic thing? Because I can tell you some of the value did go to bcash. So the fact that more went to core is what made it "the real bitcoin"? So if 51% had gone to bcash you would have reluctantly agreed that it was the real bitcoin? Even though ver's ideas are garbage? What if bcash slowly gains more and more and gets to over 50% in the future? Does it then become "the real bitcoin". If the value bounces back and forth back and forth between 49% and 51% relative to each other does the "real bitcoin" change every day as the value changes? Even if I don't go this route and accept your reason. Even if I allow that "the market decided" why does the market get to decide? You still have to say why. You can't just declare it. It just so happens that I agree with the markets decision however If ver's garbage vision for bitcoins future had won out in market capitalization after the fork I wouldn't have accepted it as "the real bitcoin" just because it had slightly more market cap. I would be here saying that core was the real bitcoin in my opinion even though it was slightly less capitalized.

#2 If that is a real reason, than you would have to say that you would call ver's version of bitcoin "the real bitcoin" if the roles had been reversed and core forked first instead of cash forking first. Are you really prepared to stand behind that?

Anyway I'm getting really tired of this and really annoyed that there isn't one single person to step forward to say that they understand what I mean. Even though I really do believe in what I am saying and I think that I have good arguments behind it even I am starting to feel like a troll at this point. So I think I am going to disengage from this pursuit.

On a lighter node. Screw lambos. I'm want one of these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsfgbHvuYRU

Jesus christ man. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

Well first off no cat will ever be as sexy as a really beautiful monohull. I could never argue that. And yea I love monohulls too but the wife gets seasick in my little monohull and cats, apparently, drastically reduce sea sickness so I promised her that we would buy a cat next time.


Apparently well designed modern cats are no less safe for blue water cruising than monohulls, or if so only marginally enough so that no one really cares. Other than that they have some other big advantages. The layout is much more accommodating to extended time aboard than monohulls generally. The way you have the whole open floorplan galley and dining that transitions smoothly into the deck as one big area and more privacy between the two separated hulls. Also cats just plain move faster. And everything stays nice and level indoors, no rocking around, you can just have a regular stove, no need for a gimble. So yea plenty of love for monohulls from me, just probably wont be what I end up buying if I do buy another yacht someday.

Yes I did. I "fucked off". See my earlier comment where I said I'm done talking about it. I'm pissing people off and that never was my intention. Sorry.

Haha I'm a leper like you now.

Can you share it with us? I'm curious. I love sailing and I love yachts. It should come as no surprise that I really love when the two of them are together in one package but I still like each of them independently.


That comment was a response to what was being discussed in the thread at that time and it deals with very important issues but I certainly never intended to harp on it in this thread. Also just for clarity I should add that I am definitely not a Nazi. People some times think failure to deny it is some sort of admission of guilt.


I can respect that answer. I don't think we have that consensus quite yet. There is definitely a good sized minority out there who believe that bcash is "the real bitcoin". Heck one such example was what started this whole discussion. Hopefully bcash will die and we will get that consensus sooner rather than later.

No I don't. If bcash was like #17 or #37 on coinmarketcap I would call that consensus and be done with it. But it isn't now is it. It's number fucking 3. THREE! It's FIVE TIMES the market cap of Monero, which is a truly exceptional project.

Bcash should be "just another altcoin" at best. I can say that with confidence because looking at the tech you can show that it's privileged position above all of the other rank and file altcoins has nothing to do with tech, there is no special tech there anywhere. So it must be that it's wildly high marketcap comes from something else besides the tech. I think it follows that the thing that sets it apart in this way is that a sizable minority of people believe it is bitcoin.

So there too is my standard for when I would say there is consensus that bitcoin core is the real bitcoin. When bcash's marketcap is that of any other rank and file altcoin. Or maybe I would say when it has a value that reflects it's utility.

*edit* I said 3 instead of 4 because ripple isn't really a cryptocurrency and it's claimed supply isn't actually traded anyway even if it was.

Hopefully that is all it is. If it is than it will quickly become apparent. Deep pockets can only prop up a market for so long.

Nice!
That sounds awesome. I can't wait to get to a point in my life where I can do something like that.


Mmmm more yacht porn. http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/67783

Who can know if its the bottom or not? It's called buying the bottom in retrospect, at the time its called catching a falling knife. You have to see some sign that the winds have changed. He waited a bit long probably but still "why don't you just buy the bottom" is a pretty unreasonable standard.

2 Birds with 1 stone!

This one time... on the lake... this wicked storm kicked up...

Trying to withdraw my bitcoins from exchange. Every day I can withdraw fewer and fewer. Every day my time table for actually getting them all pulled off gets pushed further and further into the future. Starting to wonder... if it keeps climbing at this rate will I ever get all of my bitcoins off of there? These are good problems to have .

It's super normal for that to happen when its running up quickly. Wake me up when we get a daily close < 9000. It won't necessarily mean anything but it will be enough to be interesting. Until then it's barely even noise.

Worked well enough for me with IOTA, Monero, NXT and Bitcoin. Bitcoin was definitely "some obscure crypto coin" when I first arrived here.

We should make a yacht thread. I bet there would be plenty enough people on this forum interested in that.

I love the use of space on the new Najad 395. Enough room for the whole family on a <40 footer. And that Scandinavian quality. Be still my heart. No pictures of the 395 out on the water that I can find since it's so new, so ill just include a random picture of a 450.

See that's what I'm talking about. That sounds like a yes vote for a new thread! It seems like there are a surprising number of people here who are interested in yachts/boats.

"Yacht Observer - Yacht affordability, tracking & discussion"?

That doesn't look like something I could afford. I spend my time looking at boats I can afford That's for like racing or something right? I have a family to lug around too.

The cat maybe more practical for me. Ill take a look at all of them though. The Corsair C37 is pretty crazy looking.

*edit* Oh the Lucia is just the 40 foot Fountaine Pajot. Yea I've looked at that one. As with seemingly all the cats the interior looks so chincy. Like its built out of ikea furniture.

There are definitely strong arguments to be made for cats. No doubt. Also if you ever take anyone out who has sea sickness they will be so much happier. And all your stuff wont be sloshing around below deck. And you can actually cook without hurting yourself. And they typically move a bit quicker since they have a shallower draft. My only problem is by the time they actually get up to decent quality and out of that "ikea furniture" range they are devastatingly expensive.

But you know I'm just gathering all of this from the best piecemeal research I can accomplish on the internet. I have never had the chance to get out there and look at these things in person. Hoping to be able to do that soon.

Maybe it's just the sort of talk that we need in order to help get out of this bear rut?

That was great though. Lols were had.

No. This is totally false. Once the boats get to a certain size I would definitely stop thinking about bigger boats and start thinking about spacecraft.

You do realize who ever comes next will probably be worse, right? Not saying trump is an angel or anything but it will probably be someone sort of socialist or communist next time.

I really feel like the whole mBTC and uBTC thing is wrongheaded. We shouldn't be thinking about it as fractions of BTC. We should be thinking in terms of satoshis and building up. Like bytes in computing vs the metric standard. Kilosatoshi (kSat), Megasatoshi (mSat), and Gigasatoshi (gSat), ect... It's so much more natural to think in terms of multiples than fractions. Plus we are much more the spiritual successor of the computing standards than the metric standard.

If bitcoin ever becomes so capitalized that 1 satoshi is like a dollar, well then we just use it like we do currencies now. 0.01 satoshis would feel be pretty natural as a penny. And really if we get to this point again where things start costing 0.00001 satoshis, well that is a problem I can live with.

1 kSat soon to hit 0.1 USD! Anyone think we can see kSat USD parity this year?

Haha 20 mega sounds awesome.

It is known that there is a group of elites out there who have a vision for the world that involves massive depopulation. They are not all powerful or anything like some Illuminati myths would have you believe. They are one faction out of maybe four major power factions on the planet. Their leaders are mostly Jewish intellectuals and can be thought of loosely as the neo-liberal establishment. It is reasonably safe to assume that at least some within that clique would be willing to accomplish the depopulation they desire through cataclysm if necessary.

The neo-liberals aren't a secret organization... You can order a subscription to foreign affairs from magazines.com for chirst sake. https://www.magazines.com/foreign-affairs-magazine.html

You guys should ressurect this thread. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=374873.4300 it was a hoot. 200+ pages long too.

Someday when it comes time to terraform our first planet we can just build lots of cars with no catalytic converters and drive them around on the surface.

Dude, we are getting to the point where hardware wallets are not optional. Either buy a hardware wallet and play the bitcoin game or sell your bitcoin and go put your money in wells fargo. Pick one IMO.

I like my trezor but the guys over at coinkite https://coldcardwallet.com/ claim their product will be better due to using secure hardware.

Hm well there is always remote signing on an air gaped computer. I don't think intel's security flaws could compromise that method of doing things in any way. Not without a stuxnet level of sophistication attack. Maybe theoretically possible but not even close to practically possible. https://bitcoin.org/en/wallets/desktop/windows/armory/

I wish we could have this e-peen competition without, you know, the risk of negative consequences. It would be so much fun.

Haha I better not.

I just checked the price like a few minutes ago and I'm already behind the times?

Paper gold isn't for hodling anyway. It's for speculating.

Is he really a Nazi? I have never actually knowingly encountered a Nazi before.

Here is my 2 satoshi for what it's worth:

Block size, if handled correctly, will end up having nothing to do with scaling and everything to do with regulating compensation for miners. If miners are not being given enough incentive to provide sufficient security to the blockchain than blocks are too big, if the opposite is the case than blocks are too small. Scaling will have to come from second layer solutions. Some transactions will always need to be on chain, the value that people place on putting transactions on chain needs to be enough to compensate the miners, and in the absence of the ability to regulate demand, the only alternative is to regulate the supply of on chain space inorder to increase its price to the level necessary to accomplish this.

The internal market dynamics of a crypto currency protocol is a completely synthetic environment. It's like the internal legers of a corporation. You need management to make decisions in a corporation, "the invisible hand" can not run your corporation for you and for the exact same reasons it can not manage the internal dynamics of a crypto currency. It can punish protocols that chose poorer strategies and reward those that choose better strategies, but it can not chose your strategies for you. In that sense it regulates the internal dynamics of crypto currency protocols but only in that sense.


Because miners do not have the same set of incentives that users have and the bitcoin exists to serve users not miners, miners too exist to serve users. Admittedly that's just my opinion, but I think most people here can agree with it.

I don't have the patience to get into the weeds with you right now. I'm sure I could debate with you until the sun came up and you wouldn't yield, even if I was right and well articulated. Hopefully someone understood what I was saying.

Munger Massacres "Scumbag, Immoral" Bitcoin Traders, Gates "Would Short It" If He Could
"Bitcoin is worthless artificial gold... It's anti-social, stupid and immoral...it's as bad as trading freshly harvested baby brains..."

You mad bro?

Even if it is the case that the bitcoin protocol as a whole is a scam it certainly does not follow that individual actors are trying to scam people by trying to barter with something that they personally value and are hoping that others will value as well. Your proposition is absurd.

You think it is possible for someone to unwittingly scam someone? So like if I accidentally sell someone a counterfeit good that I had no idea was counterfeit that makes me a scammer?

Well ok. You are free to define words how ever you like. Just be aware that you are defining this word very idiosyncratically. Here is a quick ddg.gg search definition. This is what most normal people interpret this word to mean.

scam
n.  A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle.
v.  To defraud; swindle.

defraud
v.   To take something from by fraud; swindle: defrauded the immigrants by selling them worthless land deeds.

fraud
n.   A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.
n.   A piece of trickery; a trick.
n.   One that defrauds; a cheat.

Idiosyncratic definitions can hamper the ability to have discussions, so if you are going to use them make sure you explicitly state how you are doing so, to avoid confusion.

That's about the long and short of it.

So tell me if I am understanding your claim correctly. You are agreeing with munger that people who use crypto currencies are immoral because they have failed to do the requite research necessary in order to arrive at the same conclusions you have?

You're boring.

If anyone here hasn't yet used the Stake your Bitcoin address here thread use erre's experience as a warning and consider doing so.

Don't forget that it lacks such inconvenient properties as mass and volume.

You don't have to give your real name. And you can have it delivered to somewhere other than your home address. Or you could make a mail pool with other people. And if you really want to go all out you can use one or several remailers. And just because a package is tracked doesn't mean the one doing the tracking knows what is inside the box. But you are right, we live in an imperfect world, so we shouldn't even make any effort to improve the situation at all.

Or maybe he just knows something that you don't from A) being from that community and B) having an IQ that is probably double what yours is. Just a thought.

Also the one that isn't here quite yet but is likely to eclipse all of those things into relative insignificance, AI.

How do people send bitcoin over email these days? You used to be able to use blockchain.info or coinapult to send bitcoin to newbies back in the day but blockchain.info appears to have removed the option and coinapult appears to be no longer supported.

The crippled mining situation is real and unfortunate however it was very short lived and not so dramatic that the crippled miner couldn't still be effective and there was no heavily front end weighted distribution curve. And it isn't even clear that there was anything nefarious about it, it's just as likely that the code for the original miner was just poorly written and some enterprising individual realized that he could improve it and use his improved miner to make some money. I highly doubt when it was all said and done that the claymore guy even got away with more than 0.25% of the currency supply. It's unfortunate but not even comparable to evan and co mining something like 70% of the dash currency supply in the first day in secret via a secret launch.

Tesla doesn't have a cent of profit even with government handouts. Someone correct me if I am wrong but I don't think they have ever made a profit. They came close one year by only running 8 digits into the red.


Look I don't care if you buy monero. Just if you are holding dash beware. It is demonstrably a total and complete scam. Are you aware of the events that took place before dash was called dash and before it was called darkcoin when it was still x-coin?

Better yet, quote him really really inaccurately. I bet that will get him going. Especially since he knows that no one will be able to see what he actually said or his protests, so everyone will just assume he actually said it.

Anyone else start out on a 166mhz pentium?

The bears and bulls are clashing.

I disagree. As a reserve asset bitcoin is totally outclassed by gold. Gold is more stable, has a longer history, is more trustworthy (as in maybe bitcoin is flawed or picked bad parameters or maybe it will get owned by quantum computers ect...) and is less arbitrary (there are hundreds of altcoins that aren't fundamentally inferior to bitcoin in any way except for bitcoins network effect). Gold on the other hand is totally outclassed by bitcoin as a value transfer and speculation vehicle.

Good...... but needs more rockets, moons, and Vegetas...

Ummm... people who went bitcoin a couple of years ago are rich AF and people who went silver are the same as ever bitter and angry at bitcoiners (see the comments section on zerohedge). I should know. I was more heavily invested in silver than bitcoin. Good thing it didn't end up taking a lot of bitcoin to get the job done...

A bitcoin maximalist can have 0% bitcoin in theory. Maximalism is just about how you define your goal. What is it that you are trying to acquire the most that you can of? If you want the most bitcoins that you can possably have at some point in the future, perhaps the best path towards that goal is to have no bitcoins at all at the present time.

My lambo is my brand new fully paid off house. Less flashy but also less childish.

That is functionally equivalent to investing borrowed money. I'm not willing to invest borrowed money. Bitcoin is neat. I understand the protocol better than 99.999% of people, and I think I understand enough about economics and fiance to see the value proposition in that protocol, but I still don't trust myself nearly enough to invest with borrowed money. There could always be some part of the picture that I'm just missing. It's not worth losing everything I have because I made an error.

Yes I am aware of this. And ditto to you. To the people who make leverage work for them, you guys keep doing you. It just isn't my style. I do take a very very risk on approach to investing (as Hueristic can attest to, I think he has been in Monero since as early as I have) but not in that particular way. I think there are better ways to get the effect that people are looking for out of leverage.


Even the thieving (((bankers))) are using leverage to buy up your debt! We are so screwed

Heads I win tails you lose.

There is such a thing as masochists. Some people like to be abused.

It takes decades to bring new supply online like that. First people have to be motivated to go out into the jungle and desert and god knows where to start poking around looking for places that might potentially have some metals. Then they have to actually find something. Then they have to build the infrastructure. Another thing that people don't realize is that when the price is artificially low producers of existing mines are forced to abandon more and more marginal ore to stay profitable, they cut their operations to the bone, and all the supermarginal ore that they neglect they cant just go back and get later. It's for all intents and purposes lost forever.

The price suppression that we see today is planting the seeds for a future supply collapse that will take a very long time to re balance.

But your point remains taken, it will eventually rebalance where that can never happen in bitcoin.

Basically, you cant dig tunnels that only hit the highest grade ore and then go back later and dig new tunnels that only hit the more marginal ores because engineers have to plan how to build a construct a mine. As an analogy, imagine if you build a sky scraper and then go to your architect after it's all said and done and say "I want to add 5000 additional square feet to the 32nd floor", that would be crazy, if you wanted 5000 additional feet it would need to be incorporated into the design before the building was built. It's not an adhock go where every you want at any given time sort of thing.

Once you go that far anyway, why stop at a million? That's the problem with those people. They have no vision.

I don't think my comment applies any less to a billion than a million

Is FP really wearing a million dollar watch? If so why? I'm really confused.

It does give one that impression...

I agree in principle but those optics are so terrible. Even me who is one of the biggest monero supporters and free market supporters was quite taken aback. Flaunting wealth that crassly is in very poor taste. I mean at least a lambo is a real thing. A honda civic doesn't work just as well as a lambo. But a 20 dollar watch at walmart probably works better than that, it probably has more features. That's like setting a million dollars on fire in front of everyone just to show them that you can.

I mean yea you are right. It's his money and he can do what ever he want's with it. And monero isn't a shitcoin, it's the best altcoin on the market, just in terms of the tech behind it, tech that he helped to develop. But setting money on fire in front of everyone really really makes you look like a scammer.


Wow. I didn't take you for a fudster. If the transactions are so traceable than why doesn't someone do it? I'll post the transaction id and someone tell me who it came from and who it went to, okay?

That... could be true I guess. But wouldn't he just use monero?


It's open source code. You can verify what ever you want. If the cryptography is broken than yea we could have problems. But the cryptography is all older well vetted stuff. And it does follow that as long as the cryptography works than the network is trustworthy and trustless. But yea cryptocurrencies are not savings vehicles anyway. Too experimental, too new, too arbitrary. They are for moving value and speculating. Speculators should know and accept risks like that (the possability of cryptography being broken) and people who are moving money have the risk minimized by not being in the payment vehicle for long.

As far as the three letter agencies knowing. It reminds me of a book I read a while back called The Cryptonomicon, a large part of the book is about a cryptographer that cracked all of the Germans messages in world war 2, and had all of this info about the enemies positions and tactics, but isn't able to use 99% of it to save ally lives because that would give away the fact that the Germans cryptography had been cracked. So he's just sitting here listening knowing that this general needs to do this action with his troops inorder to win this battle, but he cant say anything and has to listen to reports of thousands of soldiers dying that he could have saved. Moral of the story, it's still worth the effort to use something like monero because they might not have cracked it, and even if they have cracked it it's still worth the effort because their unwillingness to give away the fact that they have is a measure of protection.

The point to me is not that it be adopted before it's needed, but that it be ready for adoption when it is. Like during the last run up when people were paying 30 dollar transaction fees. LN will be adopted as soon as it is needed.

What? Our 300 and something billion? They fart that kind of money in their sleep. No. It's much more likely that they are coming in order to leverage what we have built to siphon normie money. The basic model looks like this, slowly quietly accumulate an asset, then when it's time to sell you get Jim Cramer to tell everyone that there is this secret asset that has flown under everyone's radar and that you mr normie can be the first person to get their hands on it! Then the people who were quietly accumulating sell to this new wave that Jim Cramer brings in.

Now I know this is pretty much a perfect example of what happened in 2017. Jim Cramer was even shilling for bitcoin on his show in 2017. But this well goes so so much deeper than what they tapped into in 2017, they are just getting started, and it's not about the money that's in it now, it's about the money that they can bring in. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing with MtGox liquidating on exchange is to suppress the price while they quietly accumulate OTC in preparation for the next pump and the next wave of Jim Cramer recommendations.

I think he worked at google right?

It's not that much if you need to be in one of those places you listed. Where, if you are, you will be paid well enough to be able to afford it (out of necessity) but will still only have a lifestyle on par with someone making 1/5th of your salary elsewhere. A really comfortable retirement starting at age 30 only requires about 2 million though. So it's not that a million is a small amount of money so much as it's that the particular examples you gave are WAY overpriced. For reference you need about 7 million dollars in assets to be in the american 1% and about 3 million to be in the global 1% (those figures assume that you have only assets and no income).

But yea there is a sense in which you are absolutely right. A lot of very financially illiterate people have very bad misconceptions about what a million dollars means. They will play a lottery that promises to pay out a million dollars and think if they could just win than they could live like an elite and never have to work again, which of course is not even close to accurate. It's also why everyone who wins the lottery blows through it all in a couple years, they think they won WAY more than they actually did.

Thanks for the suggestion. I went ahead and purchased it on audable. It was like $2.01 after taxes. I'll listen to it after I finish American Gods.

I feel like this is trick question. Because then it wouldn't be "the state"?

They know the goose bump formula even on stupid meaningless things. They probably have a class on it in film school. But mix that with something meaningful that I'm already passionate about, yea, same here, major goose bumps. Someone who writes for that show sounds like a super cool guy.

Bitcoin does seem to be considered a "tech stock" by the markets. There is a risk that it would suffer the same fate as other tech stocks. Best to have some phyz too just in case.

That is a battle ground upon which they can not win. I do a bit of "gaming" myself and in said games there is always a chat box and in said chat box there is constant anti leftist sentiment. Hell it's probably more political than this place. Games with left wing ideology inserted into them will not sell. Simple as that. So good, let them expend their resources on a battle field they can not win, Sun Tzu would not only welcome that battle, he would goad them into it if he could.

I should clarify, I think the reason the gaming community is so anti leftist is that it is such a highly competitive domain. These people are comfortable with competition, dominance, public displays of success and failure, and meritocracy. In fact they come there specifically for those things. It's a place that is about emphasizing the differences between people and rewarding the winners at the expense of the losers. It's the most opposite thing ever to safe spaces, equality, and everyone gets a trophy.

Hell blizzard doesn't even censer their chats like AT ALL. You can rant and rave about Nazi stuff in there if you want without consequence. If you say nigger you have to do something like ni99er or something. But really I think that's about the only limit. They know their audience.

I hate that my poor monero is getting shaken out too. It's unjust. But I do love the silver lining of seeing some of the garbage get taken out. It's spring cleaning time on coinmarketcap!

You do realize the people who make that garbage are openly admitting to have a SJW agenda at this point? Right? They publicly rant and rave about it on twitter. One of them even said one of the main characters (Lando) is a "pan-sexual". You couldn't pay me to partake of that tripe.

I'm not about to go on a crusade but if I can convince one person not to give his money to rabid ideologues who are trying to destroy our society than that is better than nothing.

Probably trap. I mean let's be real here. At this point it ought'a at least touch that double bottom 6700 level.

No he's 100% right. Every school of economic thought other than Marxists, who still cling to the nutty labor theory of value, have given up non subjective theories of value. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value

Says who? Intrinsic means an inherent property of the object it's self. So for example a gold bars refraction index is an intrinsic property, it's elemental makeup is an intrinsic property. The atomic weight of it's atoms would remain the same even if there were no one around to observe it because that is an intrinsic property. But value? In order for it's value to be an intrinsic property it would need to have a consistent value even in the absence of people around to place a value upon it.

You say it's important for making electronics. You know there are people out there who do not value electronics right?

I get that you are trying to point out a distinction between more abstract reasons for valuing things vs more concrete lower order production type reasons for valuing things, but intrinsic is just not the right word for that. It just confuses people and everyone starts talking past each other.

You know it's a bad day for bitcoin when everyone is like "hey lets talk about precious metals instead".

No sure how any of that makes sense as a response to what I said.

I actually mostly agree with most of your points. I just wanted to help you improve your argument by convincing you to abandon vague and confusing language. But it's w/e. Sure we can stop here.

One of the few places were people are only mildly impressed by your lambo.

I strongly agree with what I think is your more general point that A) commodity money is important B) cryptocurrency is not a replacement or substitute for it

Sure. Basically I don't think bitcoin makes a very good reserve asset. It isn't nearly as well suited for a base of the liquidity pyramid as gold is.



Part of what makes it poorly suited as a reserve asset is that technology improves over time. There is a risk that the leading cryptocurrency will always be overturned by new and better technology. Which is a good thing, just not a good thing if you want the properties of a stable long term bottom of the liquidity pyramid reserve asset. Interestingly there is an implication here that if bitcoin can win against all of the other alts and come to soundly dominate this sector it will more closely approximate the utility of gold as a reserve asset. But if it get's overtaken by ethereum or bcrap that could open pandoras box and doubly prove my point.

There is also an existential threat posed to bitcoin from forks that you wouldn't want in a reserve asset.

There is a technological threat, what if the network gets owned? What if it is built on assumptions that turn out to be wrong? It's well safe enough for speculation and payments and building businesses ontop of, but there is enough of a risk in this regard to hamper its utility as an ultra safe long term reserve asset.

TLDR; if you were to insert bitcoin into the pyramid it would fall in-between gold and circulating money, not next to gold, and certainly not beneath it.

On a more positive note. It may not replace gold but it totally freaking owns swift. https://www.coindesk.com/bank-argentina-just-added-bitcoin-cross-border-payments/

Interestingly, the first technology to be developed since the advent of fractional reserve banking that actually has a real chance of putting a stop to most of the double counting of reserve assets is... drum-roll... blockchain!

Ok what If I modify my statement a bit.


Would you disagree that it is a tool that is, at least in theory, capable of combating this in a meaningful way? If so, would you agree that it is the first technology that has ever been invented that is potentially capable of doing this?

The main reason that we see so much scamminess in this space is that blockchain is largely about censorship resistance, which is for the most part only needed by people who would be censored, and, big surprise, it turns out that a lot of the people who would have been censored are people who would have been up to no good. IMAGINE THAT! Anyway, just because that sort of thing is the lowest hanging fruit and so developed out first, I don't think this means that blockchain technology will never find legitimate use cases in safeguarding against scams (like the double counting of precious metals reserves).

4 years is not a long time, it is a flash in the pan.

That was fun. Thanks for the share. Can't wait to meet up with you other "earlies" in the citadel.

What kind of person does it make me if I would be equally surprised/unsurprised to learn that either of these two explanations was the case? Am I a conspiracy theorist or a nocoiner?


Oh my god. This could be almost as good as the trump election. Please Kek make this happen. I will sacrifice a chicken to you great one.

Yea well I wouldn't have agreed to sacrifice one of my chickens if I actually thought this was going to happen. I love my chickens.

Oh hell yes. But it's more complicated than a simple cost benefit analysis where eggs are the revenue.

Oh no! MarkJ what happened to that beautiful paint job bro?

Meh. A more decentralized high hash rate is more resistant to centralization pressures than an equally decentralized lower hash rate.

Hm yea I suppose that scenario is both true and consistent with what you said in your previous post.

If this is true though, it will show us something very interesting. I have been trying to figure out lately whether the market is viewing bitcoin as another tech stock or a flight to liquidity style asset. It would appear that it's both. It seems that bitcoin likes either extreme and dislikes a status quo future.

Are you sure that isn't the opposite of a problem?

And we just got some confirmation yesterday that the market does in fact see us as a safe haven asset. (A lot of people just assume this, I have never felt comfortable just assuming it)

You know what else is boring too? A house's foundation. That has to be the least interesting and exciting part of any house. That doesn't mean I would ever want to find out my house was lacking one.

It is technically possible that we could be bailed out by geometric progression in self improving AI. Not saying likely or anything. But technically possible.

Yea right. Good luck with pretending like AI is fiction. You said there was no other option. I provided an entirely scientifically plausible one.

So best case scenario is pleasure robot. Worst case scenario is back where he started. Sounds like a good deal.

BobLawblaw's dream job?

If it manages to hold above 7k this time, this will be the second higher low. All three bottoms are nice and evenly spaced out too. Confidence that the bottom is in could be all that we need in order to make new all time highs in short order.

Whips that knife out to pay for coffee at starbucks. Beta male on other side of counter pisses himself.

Institutional investment could make the bull market of 2017 look like foreplay... no not even that... hand holding.

I've known many trolls in my day and realr0ach is by far one of the more entertaining. I don't really even mind him. Look at that meme you just made, it's awesome and hilarious and it wouldn't exist without him. He's almost like our pet or something.

Sorry roach. That ship already sailed. I bought bitcoin @ $30, NXT @ like $0.001, Monero @ $4 and IOTA @ $0.01.

I would be rich af if I didn't take profit like it was my religion but I can still play video games all day if I want.

I just listed everything that I ever bought that was even remotely like a cryptocurrency. That includes ERC20 tokens, ICO's, everything. If it wasn't on that list I didn't buy it. And I dumped NXT and IOTA (the more scammy ones listed) entirely after I had locked in a good profit. I didn't "believe in" them or "hodl" them. As of now I only own Monero and Bitcoin.

*correction* I owned a little bit of litecoin and the original bytecoin a LONG time ago. Nothing serious there. Just messing around a bit with those two back when there were only even a few altcoins in existence.

Oh sorry. I didn't realize that you were kidding. Np though.

Well, they aren't wrong.

It's worse than that. I have found that most people can not think abstractly. As soon as I attempt to use abstract reasoning normal people accuse me of changing the subject...

No. The average random person is like some 50 year old lady on one of those scooters at Walmart. She really can not think in terms of anything that isn't a real concrete part of her physical world. That doesn't apply to people in this thread at all. Everyone in this thread is capable of abstract reasoning, even you are much much smarter than the average random person. Your problem is that your arguments are bad. They tend to have an element of truth to them, but they are always grossly overstated and full of strict black and white binaries that don't represent the nuances of real world. Your thinking always lacks nuance roach.

Running stops seems to be fundamentally about acquiring product and not so much about effecting the price. Do whales need the coins that are on offer on the exchanges? It seems to me that a whale would interact with an exchange for the purpose of effecting the price more than the purpose of accumulating/liquidating his position. If he were either accumulating or liquidating he would want to do either of those things OTC because if he were accumulating he wouldn't want to drive the price up and if he were liquidating he wouldn't want to drive the price down. So he makes changes to his position OTC but perhaps he tries to use a small portion of his stash to manipulate the price down before making an OTC purchase and vice a verca before making an OTC sale.

I'm not really trying to argue against you here. I'm mostly just interested in how you will respond to these thoughts.

That's what it's about isn't it. It's not about them having the coins, they already have plenty of coins, it's about others on the exchange NOT having them. So that said others can not impede the bull run by selling on the exchange during the way up. That is the insight I was missing. Shake everyone else out so that there are no sellers.

Ok well, just in case that was partly directed at me since I have posted in here before about the JQ I guess I'll respond. The people who control the media, banks and academia are Jewish, and those people are our enemies. That said I certainly wouldn't consider myself a "jew hater". Some random dentist who is a Jew does not have my animus. I am foremost an individualist. Now Goldman Sachs hater? Yea, sure.

As for your cause. I read your post. It sounds interesting. I don't know enough about the law to comment on it. If you did talk to a lawyer and found out that goldman had done something illegal, sure I would join you in a class action against goldman if I could. They are evil bastards and part of the reason I am in the crypto space is to hurt them and if that was another way to do it than I would welcome a multi pronged approach. But you just need to talk to a lawyer bro. It won't be expensive to find out if you have a case. Find out if your idea has any merit. Then talk to us.


Very insightful. I bet you are exactly right.

For me it was always about people acting in a manner that draws attention to themselves that they ought to be embarrassed about, but of course arent, because they were after all trying to draw attention to it. Southpark had it right when they said that people on loud motorcycles are fags, or more traditionally but also appropriate people who act flamboyant, or those people who wear spandex when they ride a bike or people who's cars bounce or make loud booms, those stupid eye lashes on cars, people with a "popped" collar or those stupid hats that have the bill perfectly flat and a sticker still on them from a store in the mall called "lidz". Anything that is intended to draw attention and once it does draw your attention you are like, jesus h christ I wish I never been coerced into realizing that you existed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2k4Fsg11-w

We launch all the time with no problem these days, If all that stuff that came after the launches is so easy, why do we never just throw in the 10% more effort on any one of the modern launches and go back some time? I'm not arguing the moon landing was a hoax here. Just pointing out the obvious followup question to what you said.

Idk. This is meme kinda true. But there is a huge range of applications out there where we dont NEED blockchain, but it would still be really cool!

I would love to have my vehicle ownership represented by a colored coin. I could use a trezor like device to start it up and no one would ever be cracking that security. I could transfer ownership via blockchain and it would be amazingly smooth and so much easier and nicer than a traditional title transfer. I could allow someone limited access to it like if my buddy wanted to borrow my car on Tuesday I could just temporarily authorize his digital signature with my digital signature and I could do it remotely.

Yea I guess all of that could be done with a service provided by a firm on a centralized database, but it would be nicer in several ways to have it recorded on a public blockchain instead. There would be less counter party risk. There would be less security risk. And it would be permissionless, man I hate asking for permission.

So I get it. People out there saying "Blockchain is going to revolutionize supply chain management, blockchain is going to replace traditional contracts, BLOCKCHAIN IS GOING TO REPLACE ALL OF THE THINGS!" are wrong, but I think people like Jimmy Song are also overstating their case in the other direction. We will be able to find a lot more awesome and legitimately practical uses for this technology than just cryptocurrency.

Who cares? Technology is a genie that once let out of the bottle can not be put back in. It will be with us forever. Bureaucrats and systems of record and title transfer come and go. In the long march of time even mountains are reduced to dust by the simple flowing of water. Technology is like the water and Bureaucrats are not even close to being mountains.

If it does happen in the next 30 years it will be because political jurisdictions are in a sort of competition with one another. I wouldn't be surprised to see smaller jurisdictions implement as much of this kinda stuff as they can in order to attract expats.

Yeaaaaa I'm pretty sure they don't.

I've been saying for a while that this forum needs a thread where nothing is off topic. That way off topic conversation would have a place to go. As it stands now, where do we go to shoot the shit with people who have the same interests as us but don't happen to want to talk specifically about that interest that we all have in common? I made such a thread once and the forum moderators killed it and so people use threads like this instead. /shrug

I was responding to complaints about there being too much off topic discussion here. I was pointing out that part of the reason is that there is no place for off topic discussion with people from this forum. That doesn't have anything to do with me personally.

Either way it's probably good thing to have. Now when ever people get too off topic you have somewhere to point them to instead of just telling them to stop talking about what ever it is they are currently interested in talking about.


Also it's sort of hilarious that this is considered on topic



While we are worried about people being off topic. Sick meme btw.

To what do you attribute it? I mean more specifically than just "manipulation" generally.

You can't stop a determined person from posting on a message board.

A new Bart has begun.



Hmm... If that was happening on the right scale I could definitely imagine it forming exactly that pattern. It makes sense. Do you have any evidence or arguments to support it?

What like this?



I hope it's not that kind of rocket.

That one took longer than usual to finish this barting.

Havn't you ever heard of "the calm before the storm"? The troupes are gathering on either side of the battle field preparing for the war that will soon be upon us. The next 24 hours are actually not critical. Right now we just wait.

Should probably be "shut up and take my digital signature".

what price does tone win his bet?

Not looking good for Polk.



Maybe a bit but I think we are going to see a triple bottom followed by stabilization then slow growth.

Just quote someone else who has done it to see how they did it. But spoiler alert:

Is troll face pattern bullish or bearish? Sorry I know this is chart pattern analysis 101 but please bear with me.

Make sure you have some phiz if you aren't going to keep anything in fiat. Not just for the obvious reasons, but also so that you can keep a cool head during the ups and downs in bitcoin.

Any old school hodlers cracked yet?

Because they could be as rich as they feel that they need to be at 6000 but maybe not at 1000? It was just a question... I don't watch this thing 24/7 like some people.

You say it like it's a crazy question but even if not yet I bet some people start to crack at <3000 for sure.

I don't think I'm what you would call a hodler. I always take profit at new all time highs. I took profit at 1000 when it ran up to 1200 and 2000 when it ran up to 3000 and 17000 when it ran up to 20000.

Big mistakes of course in retrospect but I like to think that I may be the last one laughing in the end. Only time will tell that one though.

*edit* I'll say this though. It gives me the luxury of feeling ok right now. The habitual taking of profit gives me the ability to stay calm, if I was a no compromise holder than there would probably be a point at which I would crack, but because I always take profit I would probably ride this wave all the way to 0 with what I have if it really came to that.

I guess maybe what's different this time is that a lot of people will be going from being rich to not. When your 100,000 dollars went down to 10,000 dollars it's just meh. When your 10 million goes down to 1 million, that's... harder.

Lightning network is being rolled out right now and it is finally delivering on bitcoins long unfulfilled promise. As far as the technology is concerned these are the best of times since the early days when bitcoin its self was a shiny new thing. I doubt you will regret that move in the long run.

When the price gets you down, focus on the tech.

I just ran into this. This is so stupid.



No shit it can't look like the one on the right. The one on the right is the problem. That's what bitcoin looks like right now and it's the reason why it doesn't scale.

Bcash is an attempt to make bitcoin it's self look like the one in the middle and in so doing give up all of the advantages that come from it looking like the one on the right. Which could be acceptable as a last resort if there were no other option.

Lightning network is a way to build a parallel network that looks like the one in the middle but doesn't replace the one on right in any way. Instead it lives separate and apart from it while being kept totally in check and made benign by the continued existence of the one on the right.

I'm so tired of all of this ignorant anti lighting network rhetoric that I keep hearing and seeing constantly. Do you guys think Ver is funding this BS. It feels like there is just too much of it for it to be organic.


P.S. Do you guys feel this is on topic enough for the wall observer thread. It's not about jews at least... but it's exactly about the price either... I just wanted a place to rant where it would actually be read and it is about bitcoin atleast...

I have thought enough about this to have some things to say. I'll add more later if I can think of more.

The bitcoin blockchain is an immutable eternal database. You can store something in there and be confident that that information will be stored forever. That is crazy useful. Property titles, ownership tokens, other blockchains will offer this of course, but bitcoin will always be the most ideal place.

Also we can always just not increase the block size, ever, until we feel like miners are more than fairly compensated through transaction fees and all models predict that a modest increase in block size will still reatain adequate network security. In fact we can base our decisions about when to increase the block size on no consideration other than security. I personally feel that everything else is secondary.

Also I don't think there is a world where lightning gets to the point where it isn't unjustifiably cumbersome for large transactions. Nation states that want to use bitcoin as an alternative to SWIFT will probably find the blockchain it's self to be the place to do something like that. So there will still always be a marginal demand for on chain transactions.

That looks most similar to the middle one of the three wouldn't you say?

Also, omg that hr tag. I am so excited to incorporate that into my posts. Just the sort of thing I have been looking for. +merit for you sir.

We need to see >7000 for this to apply.

All you have to do is say what people want to hear. They will listen to anyone if they do that.

Haha how did that work out for him in the movie?

It's like the one on the right but with crap dangling off of it. There is a large community of full node operators, that community looks like that picture on the right, if others decide to tack their own structures onto it that doesn't change the fact that the underlying one is still there.